To RCS players in games: how are the triads?

[T***@googlemail.com]

Hello RCS companions!

AFAIK the hosts RCWorld and Drewhead use the host.exe with the new
Coalition Trade Triad code already. How is the effect on the game? Do
you have triads running already?

New: Coalition Trade Triad - When 3 bases with each special building type are

within 50 ly of each other, all 3 bases gain 1500 mc per turn. <<

Thriyon

[Amaranthine]

Post by T***@googlemail.com
Hello RCS companions!
AFAIK the hosts RCWorld and Drewhead use the host.exe with the new
Coalition Trade Triad code already. How is the effect on the game? Do
you have triads running already?

New: Coalition Trade Triad - When 3 bases with each special building type are

within 50 ly of each other, all 3 bases gain 1500 mc per turn. <<
Thriyon

I will have one up and running shortly (none of my existing bases were
in the right arrangement or distance). It is near enough that my
defences can be shifted to include the Triad. I am also planning a
second, but that one is a couple hundred ly farther out.

[T***@googlemail.com]

Post by Amaranthine

Post by T***@googlemail.com
Hello RCS companions!
AFAIK the hosts RCWorld and Drewhead use the host.exe with the new
Coalition Trade Triad code already. How is the effect on the game? Do
you have triads running already?

New: Coalition Trade Triad - When 3 bases with each special building type are

within 50 ly of each other, all 3 bases gain 1500 mc per turn. <<
Thriyon

I will have one up and running shortly (none of my existing bases were
in the right arrangement or distance). It is near enough that my
defences can be shifted to include the Triad. I am also planning a
second, but that one is a couple hundred ly farther out.

That sounds good and intended.

Thriyon

[Amaranthine]

Oops.

The nearest potential Triad wasn't one. Two of the worlds were 60ly
apart. Not sure how I missed that.

So that was a waste of time and MC.

The other one (much farther away) should be set up within 3 turns
though.

[Amaranthine]

In another game I'm in, I don't believe I will be able to set up a
Triad. All potential spots that I can see so far are quite a distance
from my homeworld. Far enough out that they are likely much closer to
opposing Homeworlds that to my own.

There is one spot nearer my Homeworld (though not including my
Homeworld) that almost meets the criteria (two bases 52ly apart), but
it is doubtful I will be able to set up a true Triad

[T***@googlemail.com]

Post by Amaranthine
In another game I'm in, I don't believe I will be able to set up a
Triad. All potential spots that I can see so far are quite a distance
from my homeworld. Far enough out that they are likely much closer to
opposing Homeworlds that to my own.
There is one spot nearer my Homeworld (though not including my
Homeworld) that almost meets the criteria (two bases 52ly apart), but
it is doubtful I will be able to set up a true Triad

If the triad spots are too few, you should ask the host to increase
the triad radius to 60 lys. A map shall give some opportunities for
triads.

Maybe we check the Echo map for triad spots (with radius 50 lys) and
agree on having a triad radius on other maps that allow a similar
ratio between the number of all planets and the possible triad spots.
Sounds fair?

Thriyon

[Joyride]

Post by T***@googlemail.com
If the triad spots are too few, you should ask the host to increase
the triad radius to 60 lys. A map shall give some opportunities for
triads.

The 50 ly Radius is too small in my opinion, 60 seems okay. The triad
was set up to boost economy
in the early game but you have a lot to do to achieve this (Special
buildings plus 50.000 cols on three bases
in a short distance to another).

Even in a "tailor-made" game (rather dense stars and 60 ly radius,
with team-mates surrounding) I had just one early Triad, now the
second one stopped due to the 50k Cols restriction. (and your
experience thriyon?)

I would say the host should go to 60 to 65 LY in most games, with
dense planets 50-55 could be enough.

We will have to see how the reduction in hull prices work and the
special RCS power Boost. They add up to the power level of the race,
too.

Joyride

[Magik]

I think that hosts should use the Median Delaunay Triangulation value
for the map (calculated on Drewheads for your convenience) to
determine a suitable triad radius. If you HConfig the triad to be
slightly less than the median then you will end up with a good amount
of possible triads and the further away you go from it the less triads
there will be.

Rick/Magik

[Amaranthine]

Post by Magik
I think that hosts should use the Median Delaunay Triangulation value
for the map (calculated on Drewheads for your convenience) to
determine a suitable triad radius.  If you HConfig the triad to be
slightly less than the median then you will end up with a good amount
of possible triads and the further away you go from it the less triads
there will be.
Rick/Magik

In general, is there a percentage of the median (90%? 95%?) that
could be used as a good rule of thumb?

[Magik]

In general, is there a percentage of the median (90%?  95%?) that
could be used as a good rule of thumb?

It's just a start of a theory (unproven), so take it at face value
thus far. Probably between 80 and 90% would work.

Rick/Magik

[protomatter]

Post by Magik

Post by Amaranthine
In general, is there a percentage of the median (90%? 95%?) that
could be used as a good rule of thumb?

It's just a start of a theory (unproven), so take it at face value
thus far. Probably between 80 and 90% would work.
Rick/Magik

i like the idea of using the map values to determine a default. its
make it more based on the map instead of standard value that would
hurt potential RCS signups depending on game maps. however to make the
race viable for even a newbie to know the range, i suggest the be some
way of giving the exact range of the triad for the map they playing.
i dont want to see hconfig setting 90% of medium as a fig variable.
what i want to see is a hard number, 96 0r 50 or 75 lyr range. this
could be calculated in whatever way seems best but i dont want to do
the math to find the range. it want hard posted somewhere in the fig
file.

Proto

[T***@googlemail.com]

I'm rather fine with having 50 lys as standard radius.
It's only annoying if you check the map and find a
spot of 3 systems where you would need a triad radius
of 51 lys, which is just arbitrary and happens
occasionally.

To make the triad radius less sharp, I'd suggest to
give the radius a small bonus depending on the total
population of the possible triad:

radius = set radius + sqrt(TotalTriadPopulation/50k).

This allows to establish triads by sending more
population to the planets. This bonus is small enough
to not endanger balance. A total population of 1M give
a bonus of 4 lys and 10M give 14 lys. The good point
is that if you have enough population to increase the
radius significantly, you don't need the triad money
anyway... *g*

Additionally we could introduce some sort of special
effort triad if there is no triad possible after the
standard code. The RCS people miss the triad goodies
and look for a spot, which barely allows a triad if
all work hard.

Codewise, after no regular triad was found, another
run is made with bonus factor of 1.5 to the calculated
radius. The extra run ends if one extended triad was
found.

This would make the RCS' early performance less
dependent on the map features and the starting
position, so there should be no reason anymore to
adapt the triad radius on most maps.

What do you think?

Thriyon

[Lord Lancelot]

About something to ensure it is possible to have 1 triad.


First trial range is 150ly. (or 100-125ly)

All other are at 50ly (Default value) (or a user value 0-75ly)

So RCS trial Config would look like this 150 / 50

Coalition Trade Triad: When 3 bases of each capital type (with >50k
Colonists each) are within 50 ly of each other, they all 3 gain 1500
mc per turn.
The range is configurable by HConfig option: CoalitionTriadRadius.

I find the Triad money bonus to be a big one early to mid game, and
I'm fine with them having 1 Triad, and having to protect 3 planet
instead of 1 early on. Giving prisoners race a small juicy target.

Lord Lancelot

[protomatter]

Post by Lord Lancelot
About something to ensure it is possible to have 1 triad.
First trial range is 150ly. (or 100-125ly)
All other are at 50ly (Default value) (or a user value 0-75ly)
So RCS trial Config would look like this 150 / 50
Coalition Trade Triad: When 3 bases of each capital type (with >50k
Colonists each) are within 50 ly of each other, they all 3 gain 1500
mc per turn.
The range is configurable by HConfig option: CoalitionTriadRadius.
I find the Triad money bonus to be a big one early to mid game, and
I'm fine with them having 1 Triad, and having to protect 3 planet
instead of 1 early on. Giving prisoners race a small juicy target.
Lord Lancelot

the whole triad thing is too difficult in my opinion.
1) your required to seek out a spot somehwere on the map in order to
build it. this location could be close but it also could be way way
out of range.
2) it requires lots of resources to get the colonists and establishes
financialy three bases not includeing the defenses on the surface and
in orbit in order to maintain it.
3) its highly map dependant.

alternative: why not just give the race 1500 mc on each of the first
built tribal bases. a 1 Triad bonus gauranteed no range restrictions,
doesnt matter where or when. by doing this the race is gauranteed 1
triad no matter what game no matter what map. of course they would
sacrifice the ability of having more than one triad, but at least they
would be getting one, and would be far better in a position to defend
and manage close to thier starting point. as compensation for having
only 1 triad possibility we could always up the reward to 1800 or
2000, whatever works. or we could keep it at 1500 for the first
structures. and still alow the 50 ly radius default. just incase
another opportunity arises.

the whole point here is the seeking out part seems rather rough on
some maps and possibility easy on others. but at least this way they
wont be losing the perk due to lack of hconfig setting, map sizes or
distance to nearest triad potential.

Prototriad

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by protomatter

Post by Lord Lancelot
About something to ensure it is possible to have 1 triad.
First trial range is 150ly. (or 100-125ly)
All other are at 50ly (Default value) (or a user value 0-75ly)
So RCS trial Config would look like this 150 / 50
Coalition Trade Triad: When 3 bases of each capital type (with >50k
Colonists each) are within 50 ly of each other, they all 3 gain 1500
mc per turn.
The range is configurable by HConfig option: CoalitionTriadRadius.
I find the Triad money bonus to be a big one early to mid game, and
I'm fine with them having 1 Triad, and having to protect 3 planet
instead of 1 early on. Giving prisoners race a small juicy target.
Lord Lancelot

the whole triad thing is too difficult in my opinion.
1) your required to seek out a spot somehwere on the map in order to
build it. this location could be close but it also could be way way
out of range.
2) it requires lots of resources to get the colonists and establishes
financialy three bases not includeing the defenses on the surface and
in orbit in order to maintain it.
3) its highly map dependant.
alternative: why not just give the race 1500 mc on each of the first
built tribal bases. a 1 Triad bonus gauranteed no range restrictions,
doesnt matter where or when. by doing this the race is gauranteed 1
triad no matter what game no matter what map. of course they would
sacrifice the ability of having more than one triad, but at least they
would be getting one, and would be far better in a position to defend
and manage close to thier starting point. as compensation for having
only 1 triad possibility we could always up the reward to 1800 or
2000, whatever works. or we could keep it at 1500 for the first
structures. and still alow the 50 ly radius default. just incase
another opportunity arises.
the whole point here is the seeking out part seems rather rough on
some maps and possibility easy on others. but at least this way they
wont be losing the perk due to lack of hconfig setting, map sizes or
distance to nearest triad potential.
Prototriad

4500 MC early on is already a lot of money, that is 45 cities a bonus
of 4.5 million population.
It has to cost a little bit, and have to work a bit to acquire or
defend.

I'm against an increase of income for the Triad, it is already too
high IMO.

Lord Lancelot

[protomatter]

Post by Lord Lancelot

Post by protomatter

Post by Lord Lancelot
About something to ensure it is possible to have 1 triad.
First trial range is 150ly. (or 100-125ly)
All other are at 50ly (Default value) (or a user value 0-75ly)
So RCS trial Config would look like this 150 / 50
Coalition Trade Triad: When 3 bases of each capital type (with >50k
Colonists each) are within 50 ly of each other, they all 3 gain 1500
mc per turn.
The range is configurable by HConfig option: CoalitionTriadRadius.
I find the Triad money bonus to be a big one early to mid game, and
I'm fine with them having 1 Triad, and having to protect 3 planet
instead of 1 early on. Giving prisoners race a small juicy target.
Lord Lancelot

the whole triad thing is too difficult in my opinion.
1) your required to seek out a spot somehwere on the map in order to
build it. this location could be close but it also could be way way
out of range.
2) it requires lots of resources to get the colonists and establishes
financialy three bases not includeing the defenses on the surface and
in orbit in order to maintain it.
3) its highly map dependant.
alternative: why not just give the race 1500 mc on each of the first
built tribal bases. a 1 Triad bonus gauranteed no range restrictions,
doesnt matter where or when. by doing this the race is gauranteed 1
triad no matter what game no matter what map. of course they would
sacrifice the ability of having more than one triad, but at least they
would be getting one, and would be far better in a position to defend
and manage close to thier starting point. as compensation for having
only 1 triad possibility we could always up the reward to 1800 or
2000, whatever works. or we could keep it at 1500 for the first
structures. and still alow the 50 ly radius default. just incase
another opportunity arises.
the whole point here is the seeking out part seems rather rough on
some maps and possibility easy on others. but at least this way they
wont be losing the perk due to lack of hconfig setting, map sizes or
distance to nearest triad potential.
Prototriad

4500 MC early on is already a lot of money, that is 45 cities a bonus
of 4.5 million population.
It has to cost a little bit, and have to work a bit to acquire or
defend.
I'm against an increase of income for the Triad, it is already too
high IMO.
Lord Lancelot

it may be alot of money for most races, but this race has financial
crisis in the early on due to low growth rate and expensive hulls.

[Magik]

Post by protomatter
it may be alot of money for most races, but this race has financial
crisis in the early on due to low growth rate and expensive hulls.

Some of the hull costs were lowered in the new race pack.

The triad is meant for race flavor and isn't required for the race to
be able to win. Its a boost when you can get it. If you want all
bases that you build to have it, then increase the triad range to 3000
or so depending on the map size.

Magik

[protomatter]

Post by Magik
The triad is meant for race flavor and isn't required for the race to
be able to win. Its a boost when you can get it. If you want all
bases that you build to have it, then increase the triad range to 3000
or so depending on the map size.
Magik

well if its just race flavor then i see no reason at all to change
it... if they want the flavor, play a game where the map allows for
it. the rebels dont play in games with no natives ,so lets not worry
about the RCS getting something they dont really need.

(sarcasm intended)
Proto

[Amaranthine]

At least for echo, it should probably be 70-75% (so say 70ly).

90ly appears to allow for a huge number of Triad setups.

Post by Magik

In general, is there a percentage of the median (90%?  95%?) that
could be used as a good rule of thumb?

It's just a start of a theory (unproven), so take it at face value
thus far.  Probably between 80 and 90% would work.
Rick/Magik