Please Fix Slow Starting Medium (Cargo) ships

[Lord Lancelot]

http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/Starting_Ships_Matrix

The race that need a change in their starting ships engine are: The
Lizard Kingdom, The Solar Federation, The Stormer Kingdom (and The
United Enforcement Authority).

They all have medium deeps with warp 50 engines. They are all warp
race that are weak early (except the UEA).
I suggest they get their engine to w120, or at the very least to warp
105, like the starting Peeps medium. I would even welcome a change to
warp 90...

P.S.
The UEA will have a new race pack soon, and their starting ships will
change so no real need to fix their ships...

P.P.S
Yes i know you can refit them, by going planet tech 2, building a pod
launcher and then sending a outfit pod, and them refit them... But
wasting 4 turns on a starting ships is very bad.

You can also build a very costly small deep with the w120 engine at
the HW and tow your ships, but why does those race have to pay a high
price to have weak cargo ships useful, all other race have ok starting
ships + they will make good use of their free starting engine on the
HW.

Lord Lancelot

[Lord Lancelot]

Why not balance the last 3 races who need improved starting ships ?

Fed, Lizard, Stormer.

I mean if UEA can swap 1 sentinel & 4 medium to 2 Sentinels, 3 Small
Transports
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/The_United_Enforcement_Authority_-_Change_Proposal

Why not fix the last 3 races needing a little boost, we have done it
for starting Drac ships, starting Centaur ships, now starting UEA
ships.

The Solar Federation
Count Hull Warp Hyp Shield Armor SW LW PD Gen Comment
3 Medium Deep Space Freighter 50 - 40 20 - - - - -
1 Nebula Class Cruiser 90 - 40 20 4 Disrupter 4 Heavy Laser 2
Flake Cannon - -

Increase the Medium deep speed to w120
If not going with the option below give some weapon to the starting
Nebula...
I would say 4 PTT, but some will panic... So 2 PTT and 2 Disruptor
(large weapon).
Many races have starting PTT even PPC but THE race trade mark for PTT
has HL.

OPTION
I say Drop one Medium deep (or 2), and give them one Terra Class Star
Base, with shield 80, 4 PTT, 4 Disrupter, 10 Flake Cannon, 5 Servodyne
800.
Give the remaining 2 medium deep warp 120. YES Now they have a
Starfleet HQ, or a DS9 station.

The Lizard Kingdom
Count Hull Warp Hyp Shield Armor SW LW PD Gen Comment
5 Medium Deep Space Freighter 50 - 40 20 - - - - -
1 Lizard Class Cruiser 80 - 40 1500 4 Disrupter 2 Heavy Laser
1 Merculite Rockets
1 PTT 10 Flake Cannon - -

Increase the Medium deep speed to w120
Increase the Lizard Class Cruiser to w90, so it at least has fast as
slow race like Robot starting ships.

OPTION
Remove 1 medium deep and replace them by 1 Saurian Class Cruiser w120,
and standard weaponery: sh 80 , armor 1300, 4 HL, 6 disrupter, 5
flakes, 3 sevodyne 800,

The Stormer Kingdom
Count Hull Warp Hyp Shield Armor SW LW PD Gen Comment
4 Medium Deep Space Freighter 50 - 40 20 - - - - -
1 Deth Specula Class Frigate 190 - 350 40 10 Disrupter 2 PTT 4
Flake Cannon - -

Increase the Medium deep speed to w120 (see a pattern here ?)

OPTION
Remove 2 medium for 1 Large Deep w90 and 1 w90 Thorn Class Destroyer
Sh30, Armor 30, 15 small weapon disrupter, 10 flakes

Lord Lancelot

[Joyride]

Post by Lord Lancelot
The Lizard Kingdom
Count Hull Warp Hyp Shield Armor SW LW PD Gen Comment
5 Medium Deep Space Freighter 50 - 40 20 - - - - -
1 Lizard Class Cruiser 80 - 40 1500 4 Disrupter 2 Heavy Laser
1 Merculite Rockets
1 PTT 10 Flake Cannon - -
Increase the Medium deep speed to w120
Increase the Lizard Class Cruiser to w90, so it at least has fast as
slow race like Robot starting ships.
OPTION
Remove 1 medium deep and replace them by 1 Saurian Class Cruiser w120,
and standard weaponery: sh 80 , armor 1300, 4 HL, 6 disrupter, 5
flakes, 3 sevodyne 800,
Lord Lancelot

I can only give my suggestions and wishes for Lizards as I play them
quite often.
What you are saying is quite true. I often refit at least one MDS
because Speed 50 ist useless
after turn 10.

I would be happy if one MDS could be switched for a SCC - to balance
things warp 90 is
enough for the Saurian class cruiser.

Joyride

[protomatter]

Post by Lord Lancelot
The Solar Federation
Count Hull Warp Hyp Shield Armor SW LW PD Gen Comment
3 Medium Deep Space Freighter 50 - 40 20 - - - - -
1 Nebula Class Cruiser 90 - 40 20 4 Disrupter 4 Heavy Laser 2
Flake Cannon - -
OPTION
I say Drop one Medium deep (or 2), and give them one Terra Class Star
Base, with shield 80, 4 PTT, 4 Disrupter, 10 Flake Cannon, 5 Servodyne
800.
Give the remaining 2 medium deep warp 120. YES Now they have a
Starfleet HQ, or a DS9 station.
Lord Lancelot

i like the option of a PTT terra class starbase... its immobile for
several turns until large hull techs can tow it, and it still
pprovides the defensive platform needed for early hyper strikes. thus
giving them at least some chance of survival.

im all for this
Proto

P.S. warp 50 frieghters are nearly useless may as well give em a
default of 90 at a minimum. at least then they can be useful without
waiting for a refit pod.

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by protomatter

Post by Lord Lancelot
The Solar Federation
Count Hull Warp Hyp Shield Armor SW LW PD Gen Comment
3 Medium Deep Space Freighter 50 - 40 20 - - - - -
1 Nebula Class Cruiser 90 - 40 20 4 Disrupter 4 Heavy Laser 2
Flake Cannon - -
OPTION
I say Drop one Medium deep (or 2), and give them one Terra Class Star
Base, with shield 80, 4 PTT, 4 Disrupter, 10 Flake Cannon, 5 Servodyne
800.
Give the remaining 2 medium deep warp 120. YES Now they have a
Starfleet HQ, or a DS9 station.
Lord Lancelot

i like the option of a PTT terra class starbase... its immobile for
several turns until large hull techs can tow it, and it still
pprovides the defensive platform needed for early hyper strikes. thus
giving them at least some chance of survival.
im all for this
Proto
P.S. warp 50 frieghters are nearly useless may as well give em a
default of 90 at a minimum. at least then they can be useful without
waiting for a refit pod.

Yes both Rumuta and Proto have it right, and I have talked to Asthar
and he also agree that with the Lizard ability to shoot like if their
no base shield, the speed of the starting LCC must not be too fast...
W90 for the LCC seem right, with the possibility to upgrade it weapon.

And yes the fed nebula could stay like now, but remove one medium and
give them a terra class with PTT, it does not move.

Please do a quick fixes and set all medium to w120, than we could fine
tune the rest if needed.

P.S.
Yes Rumuta I showed that an advance players can defend with the fed,
but i did 100% defense, not a single mining or farming colony, only 75
mech produing money on hw even if the hw could support 150, and the
fed still got their HW heavily damaged by orbital bombardement, but
yes it this case the fed fleet killed the 2 wave of EE attacking
ships.

But you cant win a game with multiple player only staying at your HW
for turn 1-10 and not having a booming ecomony.

Early Lizard and Stormer have similar trouble has fed since they have
slow crappy ships.

Lord Lancelot

[Zaabur]

I'm agree that some "warp races" need, in general, better ships on
start than HYP.

According with the races that we speak for, I am OK with the changes
for Lizard and Stormer but with the Federation we must be very
carefull.


I do not like the idea of PTT on starting Nebula. I have played fed a
lot and you can reflit starting nebula with the 3.000 shield (It
support 900 only but works with that shield) and with 1 HG is a hard
ship. The actual Nebula that lack of good LW makes them not as
stronger but with four PTT, it could be a pannic. I think that it
should have better weapons but not 4 PTT.

My choice:

1- Frighters with warp 120
2- Terra Class Starbase shield 3.000, 2 PTT + 2 Dissrupter Cannon, 4
Disrupter, 10 Flake Cannon, 5 Servodyne 800
3- Nebula with warp 120, 1 PTT + 3 Dussrupter Cannon, 2 Flake Cannon

If you put 4 PTT in any ship, my first movement as Fed Player should
be to get out that Torps from Terra Starbase and put them in the
Nebula, that's only a few turns and you get one awesome ship.

With one Terra with one 3.000 shield (You have one on the HW so you
will have it on starbase in three turns ), 2 PPT + 2 DC should be
sufficient to defend HW from early attack.

With only one PTT on Nebula, ship is good to hit early ships but is
not a Nightmare.

Bye
Fdo: Zaabur

PD: Your noise ;-)

[protomatter]

there are already unbalancing tools in the game. for example at turn 8
Evil empire gets a new shuttle with a hyperdrive capable of jumping
900 lyrs with two dustoff pods ready for invasion , the hyperdrive
could be refitted to any ship hull they like if they dont need it for
the shuttle not to mention thier starting shuttles already have 300 LY
traqvel on turn 1. the warp races are lucky to move 50 in some cases.
and will never accomplish the 300 ly stretch even at turn 10. to me
this game is based on mobility and EE has that won fairly well in the
first turn.

to balance ships i would suggest a complete reconstruction of the
starting ships for most all races to something a lil more scaled down.

ideally i would like to see that each race have 4 starting hulls that
meet the following criteria,

1-the first hull should be a spy/recon/scanner ship such as the feds
outrider or the UA watchman as examples.
2- the second hull should be a stationary or orbital platform such as
the rebel space platform or the centaur starbase for base defenses. in
the case of races of with no platforms then simply double the 4th ship
type.
3- the thrd hull should be some sort of transport with no more than
warp 50 speed or micrifold 200 for the hyper only races however some
of these hyperraces have actual warp ships and that should be a
priority over giving a hyperdrive if possible
4- a uniqe racial hull as someone pointed out. usually nothing to
combat capable but a lightly armed light frigate or escort . examples
could be serpent class escort (lizards) b222 destroyer(borg)

the above vessels should only be armed with weapons/shields/engines no
higher than the starting tech levels.
base stockpiled parts should not be allowed to be used until such time
as that tech level of research has been obtained.


i realize some races cant easily meet these restrictions. but im sure
we can do better than what we have now.but starting ships dont have to
meet be in the shiplist in some cases such as frieghters that arebnt
there

as an example ill attempt the first few races starting ships
Formula
1- scout/spy scanner
2- orbital platform or starbase or speciality ship/ or duplicate hull
#4 if no base or platform
3- Transport ship
4- unique to race light combat ship


UA
1- Watchman Class Scout
2- MDSF (not in the ship list)
3- XL-5 Weapons Platform
4- Hunter Killer

Feds
1- Outrider
2- Terra Class Starbase
3- MDSF
4- Nocturne

Lizards
1- Serpent
2- Reptile (no platforms in this race list)
3- MDSF
4- Reptile

Birds

1- Swift Class Scout
2- Avalar station
3- MDSF (not in the ship list)
4- White Falcon Class Cruiser

some complicated races.....

CoM
Leave as they are.

Borg
1- b200 probe
2- b222 destroyer no orbital platform
3- Iron Slave
4- b222 destroyer

Privs
1- Outrider Class Scout
2-MCBR (no space platform)
3- MDSF
4- BR4 class gunship

Crystals
in the case of the crystals most all thier ships are similar with
mostly speed, device, and weapon slot differences.however they could
be left as they are if the option bleow is not used.

1- Jade
2- Jade
3- Jade
4- Jade

EE could remain the same as they are however i would reccomend a tone
down of the emperors shuttle that arrives on turn 8 as its engines,
small weapons, Poiny defense and hyperdrive become overpowering in
game balance. IMHO.

robots

1- Catspaw
2- Instrumentality
3- Catspaw
4- Q-tanker

these are only suggestions. and if combined with the proposed change
to disallow reffitting above your tech level
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.vgaplanets4/browse_thread/thread/fc6e7e335aca2bde?hl=en#
would aide in the balancing of starting ships.

Proto

[Joyride]

Post by protomatter
to balance ships i would suggest a complete reconstruction of the
starting ships for most all races to something a lil more scaled down.

Well, in my opinion the worst enemy of the small advancement is the
big one. ;-)
All contributors to the group agreed on small changes regarding Fed,
Liz and stormer (and UA?).

Your idea is worth to discuss but we should do on other terms in
another thread because
there is a lot of work to do for sure esp. regarding the stockpile
limitations.
They already have not built in when amphibs were toned down (which I
found the better way).

Joyride

[Lord Lancelot]

Starting ships Matrix
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/Starting_Ships_Matrix

Resources on Starting Ships Matrix
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/Resources_on_Starting_Ships_Matrix

One must be careful when changing the hull type, of a race starting
ships.
All race are now balanced with their starting resources, with it tie
to the cargo hold of their starting ships, starting resources have to
be in the cargo of ships, they can not be in pods or added to the
HW.

We would all like to see more unique, special, racial starting ships
instead of let say medium deeps. But most importantly more BALANCED at
the very least in regard of starting ship warp speed.

But the medium has 2000 cargo, not many race have unique ship with big
cargo hold, often it just the generic Small, medium, small transport,
large and super.

That being said, after having heard and be influenced by many players
ideas (Zaabur, Asthar, Black JoSch, Prottomatter, Joyride Rumata,
Shard X Cal, just to name a few) and inputs here my recommendation.

THE SOLAR FEDERATION

NOW: 4 Ships
3 Medium w50 deep (6000 cargo)
1 Nebula w90 (350 cargo) 4HL, 4Dis, 2flk Sh:40 Armor:20

NEW: 4 Ships (Same starting resources on ships as before)

2 NOCTURNE W90 2HL, 6 dis, 4 flk, sh:40 armor:70 (320 scan, mine
sweeper, mine layer)

1 TERRA CLASS STAR BASE (it has 0 engines) Cargo maximum 40 000
So we put the starting resources of the 3 previous medium deep on it.
1SC 2PTT, 1DC, 4 Dis, 10 Flk SH:400 (max of 3000) Armor: 400 , 5
Servodyne 800

1 NEBULA w120 (instead of w90) (350 cargo) 2PTT, 2DC, 4Dis, 2flk Sh:
40 Armor:20


THE LIZARD KINGDOM

NOW: 6 Ships
5 Medium w50 ( 10 000 cargo)
1 LCC w80 2HL 1PTT 1MR, 4Dis, 10 Flk Sh:40 Armor:1500

NEW: 6 Ships
5 Medium w105 (FTL3) ( 10 000 cargo) (ppl are scare of w120 because of
the possible liz ground attacks)
1 LCC w90 1PTT 3DC, 4Dis, 10 Micro sand caster (or Intercept) Sh:40
Armor:1500

WAIT do not panic yet let me explain why this ship is weaker with MSC
or intercept than with flakes. Also the w90 make them a little faster
on the map, vs w80, but make them a little slower in the VCR, with
make them a lesser threat vs enemy HW and allow enemy fighter to kill
it faster.

The new LCC is a little better vs ships, but it much more prone to be
shot down by HW fighter wings, especially with intercept, it become a
little like the Scavenger starting Pretender Class Q-Ship, well not
has strong since they have 4 and they have PPC BC and all have w90,
but they also have intercept witch is their only weakness, fighter can
kill them…

Since they do not have unique ships with big enough cargo hold beside
the LCC (1500) we leave the Lizard with their medium deep for their
starting resources and empire building. Do we want to transform their
5 medium deep in 5 more LCC ? NO that would be crazy strong…


THE STORMER KINGDOM

NOW: 5 Ships
4 MEDIUM w50 deep (8000 cargo)
1 DETH SPECULA CLASS FRIGATE w190 (350 cargo) 2PTT, 10Dis, 4flk Sh:350
Armor:20

OPTION A VANILLA

NEW: 5 Ships (Same starting resources on ships as before)
4 MEDIUM w105 (FTL3) deep (8000 cargo)
1 DETH SPECULA CLASS FRIGATE w190 (350 cargo) 2PTT, 10Dis, 4flk Sh:350
Armor:20 (NO Change)

OPTION B VANILLA & BLOOD ALE

NEW: 6 Ships (Same starting resources on ships as before)
4 MEDIUM w105 (FTL3) deep (8000 cargo)
1 DETH SPECULA CLASS FRIGATE w190 (350 cargo) 2PTT, 10Dis, 4flk Sh:350
Armor:20 (NO Change)

1 NEFARIOUS CLASS DESTROYER w20 1DC, 15 dis, 10 FLK (primary use
scanner, can later be refitted with engine for mine laying mine
sweeping or a single boom) (0 cargo hold)

OPTION C KLINGON FLEET

NEW: 4 (5 if Nefarious) Ships (Same starting resources on ships as
before)

1 VICTORIOUS CLASS BATTLESHIP W13 engines, 1 sand cater, 19 empty
large weapon, 20 dis, 10 FLk, Sh:400, Armor: 200, 5 Servodyne 800.
This ship has 10 000 cargo so all the stuff from the medium 8000 cargo
goes in it.
It can later be refitted with some weapons like HL, the shield 300
(even if it has a hull max of 1000) and become a hw defense ship, The
victorious need 12 engines, and can only be towed by a hull tech 5
Stormer ship or more, so this ship can not be used offensively until
very late, it can not move (or be towed) fast enough to be at an enemy
hw...

1 DETH SPECULA CLASS FRIGATE w190 (350 cargo) 2PTT, 10Dis, 4flk Sh:350
Armor:20 (NO Change)

2 PAINMAKER CLASS CRUISER w90 1HL, 4Dis, 2 Flk, Sh:30 Armor:10 (Cargo
250 Empty) 1 pod pay
Pain maker here serve has a small cargo ship & pod bay to start
expanding or gather resources from nearby planets.

OPTIONAL SHIP
1 NEFARIOUS CLASS DESTROYER w20 1HL, 15 dis, 10 FLK (primary use
scanner, can later be refitted with engine for mine laying mine
sweeping or a single boom) (0 cargo

Lord Lancelot

[Joyride]

Post by Lord Lancelot
One must be careful when changing the hull type, of a race starting
ships.
All race are now balanced with their starting resources, with it tie
to the cargo hold of their starting ships, starting resources have to
be in the cargo of ships, they can not be in pods or added to the
HW.

Good point! Indeed I never thought about that.

Regarding your conclusion:

The Feds:
I am nearly fine with that. Maybe the total of 4 PTT is too much?
Leave 2 on the starbase and drop one or two on the nebula.

The Lizards:
It is a improvement. But the suggestions for the other races tend to
give away more warships. This should be done with Lizards either. I
would like see one MDS swapped for a SCC (w80 2HL 1SC, 1DC, 6Pul, 5
Flk Sh:80 Armor:800). This is a unique ship with decent Cargo Hold.

The Stormer:
Option B seems too strong. A deth spec with scanners for guiding is
annoying. Missing the scan is the weak stormer point at start (same
goes for Lizards, they should have to build an Eros).
Option C is interesting. The give away cargo for colonisation but
become more aggresive (here I would add the nefarious).
Option A is okay, but unspectecular.
I really would like to hear a stormer player comment on this topic.

Joyride
Option C in small uniververses

[Shard]

Post by Joyride
Option B seems too strong. A deth spec with scanners for guiding is
annoying. Missing the scan is the weak stormer point at start (same
goes for Lizards, they should have to build an Eros).
Option C is interesting. The give away cargo for colonisation but
become more aggresive (here I would add the nefarious).
Option A is okay, but unspectecular.
I really would like to hear a stormer player comment on this topic.

I commented on Drewhead earlier - although I'd *really* like to start
the game with a Nefarious (evil grin), I think it's pretty likely to
be unbalancing. About the only thing that keeps Stormers in check is
having to wait until hull tech 7 before starting to pop worms. If you
give me a starting Vickie and a starting Nefarious and I find some
worms nearby I'll start thinking about super weapons - tech 2 for a
Nemesis Torpedo launcher or even the WCM at tech 3... Hull tech 5 is
not *that* far away and I'll be towing my super weapon armed Vickie
around with cloaked Thorn (using two starting engines) at Warp 120.
If I go for WCM then the Vickie can carry the starting fighters too!

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by Shard

Post by Joyride
Option B seems too strong. A deth spec with scanners for guiding is
annoying. Missing the scan is the weak stormer point at start (same
goes for Lizards, they should have to build an Eros).
Option C is interesting. The give away cargo for colonisation but
become more aggresive (here I would add the nefarious).
Option A is okay, but unspectecular.
I really would like to hear a stormer player comment on this topic.

I commented on Drewhead earlier - although I'd *really* like to start
the game with a Nefarious (evil grin), I think it's pretty likely to
be unbalancing. About the only thing that keeps Stormers in check is
having to wait until hull tech 7 before starting to pop worms. If you
give me a starting Vickie and a starting Nefarious and I find some
worms nearby I'll start thinking about super weapons - tech 2 for a
Nemesis Torpedo launcher or even the WCM at tech 3... Hull tech 5 is
not *that* far away and I'll be towing my super weapon armed Vickie
around with cloaked Thorn (using two starting engines) at Warp 120.
If I go for WCM then the Vickie can carry the starting fighters too!

If the Nebula seem too strong, it can have Heavy laser, the most
important change for them is the Terra, and speed increase.
Sound really funny, since so many race have decent weapon & hull, and
that the fed has a somewhat weak economy, but good ship list.

I'm a Klingon player.
:)

Lord Lancelot

[Ashtar]

Guys, reguarding Photons torpedoes as too powerful on one starting
ship...

- UEA will now have 2 sentinel with PTL
- Robots ships both have torpedoes
- Privateers too
- Crystal have a ruby with PTL
- Klingons have a Deth spec with PTL
- RCS have also 3 ships with PTL

We can also look at starting part when it comes to solarian, sure as
hell need 12 FTL 3 w105 on their starting coronas so they refit them
all for a horde of prominences by turn 4-5.

I wonT' talk about COM and rebel ships either.

I see no good argument that makes a single Nebula with 4 PTL as the
most dangerous thing around or as ''too strong''. Especially when we
talk about the most standard race around.

[Nyh]

Asthar, it's not that PTT are too powerfull. It's that the Fed's bonus
to PTT is really powerfull, and giving him the ability to exploit it
since the begining it's too powerfull.

Post by Ashtar
Guys, reguarding Photons torpedoes as too powerful on one starting
ship...
- UEA will now have 2 sentinel with PTL
- Robots ships both have torpedoes
- Privateers too
- Crystal have a ruby with PTL
- Klingons have a Deth spec with PTL
- RCS have also 3 ships with PTL
We can also look at starting part when it comes to solarian, sure as
hell need 12 FTL 3 w105 on their starting coronas so they refit them
all for a horde of prominences by turn 4-5.
I wonT' talk about COM and rebel ships either.
I see no good argument that makes a single Nebula with 4 PTL as the
most dangerous thing around or as ''too strong''. Especially when we
talk about the most standard race around.

[Lord Lancelot]

PTT on Stormer hull are even more powerful...
they do not miss.

But they start with a DS with PTT.

[Shard]

Post by Lord Lancelot
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/Starting_Ships_Matrix
The race that need a change in their starting ships engine are: The
Lizard Kingdom, The Solar Federation, The Stormer Kingdom (and The
United Enforcement Authority).
They all have medium deeps with warp 50 engines. They are all warp
race that are weak early (except the UEA).
I suggest they get their engine to w120, or at the very least to warp
105, like the starting Peeps medium. I would even welcome a change to
warp 90...

I think this would be a useful change.

There are two other races that need consideration though.

One race whose starting ships don't really 'match' is the Birds. The
"super cloakers" start with three of their only warship type that
doesn't actually cloak. I think they would be better served with tow
or three cloakers, for example a Deth Spec and two White Falcons. Or
possibly a Deth Spec, a White Falcon and one Skyfire (for the
scanners).

The other 'non-matching' race is the Peeps, who start with a bunch of
ships that are not actually on their (massive) ship list. They could
be started with a pod launcher and 2 Ambassadors, 1 Perseverence, 2
Revolutions and 1 or 2 Defiance Weapons Platforms.

[Magik]

One race whose starting ships don't really 'match' is the Birds.  The
"super cloakers" start with three of their only warship type that
doesn't actually cloak.  I think they would be better served with tow
or three cloakers, for example a Deth Spec and two White Falcons.  Or
possibly a Deth Spec, a White Falcon and one Skyfire (for the
scanners).

I actually like the Birds starting ships because they are just about
the only "real" scout that they have. The rest can't see the ocean
while sitting on the beach.

The other 'non-matching' race is the Peeps, who start with a bunch of
ships that are not actually on their (massive) ship list.  They could
be started with a pod launcher and 2 Ambassadors, 1 Perseverence, 2
Revolutions and 1 or 2 Defiance Weapons Platforms.

I'll let the Peeps owner make that recommendation. I agree that it
needs to be changed.

Magik

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by Magik

Post by Shard
One race whose starting ships don't really 'match' is the Birds. The
"super cloakers" start with three of their only warship type that
doesn't actually cloak. I think they would be better served with tow
or three cloakers, for example a Deth Spec and two White Falcons. Or
possibly a Deth Spec, a White Falcon and one Skyfire (for the
scanners).

I actually like the Birds starting ships because they are just about
the only "real" scout that they have. The rest can't see the ocean
while sitting on the beach.

Post by Shard
The other 'non-matching' race is the Peeps, who start with a bunch of
ships that are not actually on their (massive) ship list. They could
be started with a pod launcher and 2 Ambassadors, 1 Perseverence, 2
Revolutions and 1 or 2 Defiance Weapons Platforms.

I'll let the Peeps owner make that recommendation. I agree that it
needs to be changed.
Magik

I find the Birdmen starting ships really good for them too, fast ! 6
w190 engines that can later be used on 6 bird of prey...
Early on good scanner good cargo allow to grab all ressource on planet
surface near them, they can fight !
Their 1000000% stronger than medium deep with warp 50 engines.

Magik not a word on the increase of the medium deep speed ?

How come UEA can have 1 ship with PTT, and after the next uptdate 2,
and the fed can have one ?
Why does the Lizards, Fed, Stormers staring ship have to suck so bad,
while ALL 18 other race have descent starting ships ?
Why 3rd party race starting ships are so easy to change... Drac,
Centaur, UEA, but not the 3 Original race who need a change the most,
those race where in the first to came out and have never been updated.
Please let these 3 Tim races be on a more equal footing than the other
race.

Take a look at
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/Starting_Ships_Matrix
Compare every race starting ships, the worst and most feeble are Fed,
Lizard, Stormer.
Giving w120 medium deep is a good step in the correct durection, but
they could also get a little boost with a 2nd unique hull

Lord Lancelot

[Ashtar]

Fed: Nebula w120 + 4 photons tubes + best shield, 3 med deep 120

Lizard: 1 LCC 190 + photons + best shield, 3 med deep 120

Stormer: 1 deth specula (as is) + 1 Thorn (disrupter 120 best shield),
2 med 120.

[protomatter]

Post by Ashtar
Fed: Nebula w120 + 4 photons tubes + best shield, 3 med deep 120
Lizard: 1 LCC 190 + photons + best shield, 3 med deep 120
Stormer: 1 deth specula (as is) + 1 Thorn (disrupter 120 best shield),
2 med 120.

we have discussed this before and the only real counters to the
discussion was that lizards would be able to early ground assault...
aside from the lizards all the races need to improved in thier
frieghter speed capabilities. in addition to that the federation
starting nebula needs to have PTT's installed the fed nebula cruiser
needs this to defend thier homeworld. and the feds are quite often the
victims of early hyperstrikes. and why i no longer play them. with the
changing of freighter speeds and upgrade to the nebula the feds will
have a fighting chance to merely survive the first 10 turns. as
opposed to being the prime victim of hyper strikes.

i strongly suggest these changes to improve overall starting ship
balance.

Proto

[rumata]

Post by Ashtar
Fed: Nebula w120 + 4 photons tubes + best shield

This is a _very_ strong ship. One could argue that it's needed for HW-
defense, and that it's offensive value is limited (eaten alive by
fighters)
However:
-You have shown that the Feds can defend their HW as is (testgame
against Guerra playing EE).
-I'm fairly certain that I could find ways to work around starting
fighters and I _would_ use it for an early attack.

Post by Ashtar
Lizard: 1 LCC 190 + photons + best shield

This fellow would be an awesome offensive asset: Dump 2990 troops plus
10 Hg on the planet, and disable the enemy base at the same time (a
few Torps through the base-shield). If one can wait to refit, it will
yield two transwarp saurians very early, and let you put a sandcaster
or two on the LCC.

On the (slow) freighters I tend to agree. Although a different
possibility would be to downrate all (fast) starting ships to impuls-
engines/turbo-thrusters.

Cheers,
Michael