Lengths of vcr, super wepaons, escaping from vcr

[GFM GToeroe]

Hi!

We had reasons to change the charging. We wanted units charge at the
start. And we do not wanted to have slow charging before tick 300 and
we do
not wanted objects to wait with charging till they appear in vcr. We
also
introduced immediate 2nd wave. And we liked it because now combat
were decided earlier. And this minimizes the size of the rst, too.

The length of a vcr depends on the "contact" time of the hostile
objects. Of course if every object is set to "close to point blank" or
small stand offs then a vcr is over very rapid.

But if you operate with retreat and strike off or long stand offs then
vcr often lasts longer.

But there is an issue conected with super weapons which was brought up
earlier: Super weapons often fire their first time at tick 310.
Normally it takes 500 (SL IIRC) or 1000 (other SupWs) to charge a
SupW by normal means. But at tick 310 their is a power boost (not the
new one) which charges SupWs if the powerbank limit is big enough.
Tick 310 seems not fitting anymore to the reduced mean time of vcrs.

So there is the idea to shift this event from 310 to somewhere between
150 and 200. How do you think about it?

As the vcr times have become smaller one can also ask if the time
intervals [500, 2300] for Cents and [1500,2300] for other races when
ships and wings are allowed to leave comat have to be shifted to the
left on the time line.

Was is the real intention of the ability to flee from vcr? Objects
will be forced to a next vcr anyway. I'm not sure if it is and bonus
or malus. Could one think about a rule that cuts the number of
possible vcr per turn depending on the fact if it escaped from combat
or not?

GFM GToeroe

[Magik]

Post by GFM GToeroe
Was is the real intention of the ability to flee from vcr? Objects
will be forced to a next vcr anyway. I'm not sure if it is and bonus
or malus. Could one think about a rule that cuts the number of
possible vcr per turn depending on the fact if it escaped from combat
or not?

The fleeing unit has 49 movement pulses to attempt to get out of
combat range before next combat.

Magik

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by Magik

Post by GFM GToeroe
Was is the real intention of the ability to flee from vcr? Objects
will be forced to a next vcr anyway. I'm not sure if it is and bonus
or malus. Could one think about a rule that cuts the number of
possible vcr per turn depending on the fact if it escaped from combat
or not?

The fleeing unit has 49 movement pulses to attempt to get out of
combat range before next combat.
Magik

Oh! Let me repeat to check if I have understoo this correct:

My Raffa is moving at 190 speed and triggers a vcr. Within the vcr it
escapes from vcr at tick ~500 in good shape. At it moves with 190
speed it may gets out of combat trigger range before the hostile
object or the Raffa itself can trigger the next combat?

Gabor

[rumata]

Post by Magik
The fleeing unit has 49 movement pulses to attempt to get out of
combat range before next combat.

So the maximum number of combats per unit and turn would be four, yes?

Also, how is this handled for multiple units arriving at different
times? Say, ship X of race A arrives at base Y of race B at movement-
tick 150, it starts a fight (with the base), but ship and base
survive.
At movement tick 170 reinforcments of both races arrive at Y.

-Will a fight start immediately?
-Are ship X and base Y participating?
-Is fighting delayed till tick 200?

Cheers,
Michael

[Magik]

Post by rumata

Post by Magik
The fleeing unit has 49 movement pulses to attempt to get out of
combat range before next combat.

So the maximum number of combats per unit and turn would be four, yes?

There are exceptions. If another initiator catches the target that
has already been in combat then it can initiate combat with the
target. Plus, towards the end of the turn's movement is a last-chance
combat for pretty much all units except for those that recently were
in a combat or initiated a combat.

Post by rumata
Also, how is this handled for multiple units arriving at different
times? Say, ship X of race A arrives at base Y of race B at movement-
tick 150, it starts a fight (with the base), but ship and base
survive.
At movement tick 170 reinforcments of both races arrive at Y.
-Will a fight start immediately?
-Are ship X and base Y participating?
-Is fighting delayed till tick 200?

A base can only be in a combat twice per turn. Exceptions to that are
1) if it is an initiator or 2) if there are units set to Guard Base at
the base and the base has combat ability (AAGs, Wings, ICs). Even if
a fresh initiator that hasn't seen combat yet comes in, it can't
initiate a combat with a base unless it hasn't already been in a
combat or it meets the exceptions.

In your example, X and Y will fight on tick 150 and survive. On tick
170, reinforcements arrive and if any are set to guard base and if the
base has combat ability then a fight will happen. If there are no
guards set, then only ships will participate in combat. At tick 199,
another combat will occur with the base involved.

Magik

[Mutu]

Well I for one would like to be able to watch and enjoy the VCR. Which
is very very hard with lots of combatants and the weapons firing as
fast as they do.

At the moment, I might as well skip the VCRs and just look at the
results for large combats, and they use to be my favorite to watch.
The chases we also quite fun, but that too is harder to get when
everything moves so zippy.

But in general, I would prefer to have a fun VCR to watch, rather than
just a smattering of stats. Is there a way to get that back? I know I
am not the only one who liked to watch long VCRs waiting to see what
happens, watching ships chase each other and volley weapons back and
forth.

Though the movement now is much much more fun to watch, it is all a
mess of mass movement and chaos and it is hard to see what is going on
now.

[Phaidros]

Post by Mutu
Well I for one would like to be able to watch and enjoy the VCR. Which
is very very hard with lots of combatants and the weapons firing as
fast as they do.
At the moment, I might as well skip the VCRs and just look at the
results for large combats, and they use to be my favorite to watch.
The chases we also quite fun, but that too is harder to get when
everything moves so zippy.

I must say, I share the same feeling. A short vcr is not a value in
itself and maybe the slow charging of the weapons in the beginning and
the slower unit speeds were there for good reasons. I guess, the
zipping issue could be easily dealt with by scaling the speed of
everything slightly downwards.

Phaidros

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by GFM GToeroe
So there is the idea to shift this event from 310 to somewhere between
150 and 200. How do you think about it?

Let's have one Special super weapon boost at 150, but keep the one at
310.
Only allow a ship with super weapon to get one OR the other NOT both.
So if a super weapon ship manage to enter in 2nd wave at tick 300,
they can fired (very rare wince most vcr are finished before that).
If a super weapon ship enter in 1rst wave than at tick 150 it will
fire, assuming it still in shape of firing.

Post by GFM GToeroe
As the vcr times have become smaller one can also ask if the time
intervals [500, 2300] for Cents and [1500,2300] for other races when
ships and wings are allowed to leave combat have to be shifted to the
left on the time line.

300 (Maybe even a little less like 250), 1000 for all race
(Something like 200-250), 600 for Centaur

Make sure only ship on Flee, try to exit (and maybe extremely damaged
ships)

Lord Lancelot

[Magik]

Post by GFM GToeroe
My Raffa is moving at 190 speed and triggers a vcr. Within the vcr it
escapes from vcr at tick ~500 in good shape. At it moves with 190
speed it may gets out of combat trigger range before the hostile
object or the Raffa itself can trigger the next combat?

When a unit participates in a combat, it's "next fight" possibility is
increased by 49 movement pulses. So, unless the combatants are
actively attempting to pursue your Raffa at comperable speeds or stop
you via tractor beam then you can get away. This demonstrates the
ability for the attackers to be able to corner you at least once and
engage in combat and the ability of the target to evade their
attackers for a while.

Things that have already been brought up in this discussion that are
of concern are:
* VCR file sizes grow larger as combats last longer.
* The inability of super weapons to be charged before combat is
already over due to the great new combat movement physics.
* The inability of the players to accurately see what is going on in
complex combats due to things zipping around at high speeds.
* Some race features are not effective, not as effective as before, or
are even more effective.

Adjusting the movement speed of units will not increase the VCR file
size that much, but reducing the amount of damage that weapons do
will. Both changes require a lot of coding and have a potential to
unbalance things. The easiest change (code-wise) would be to slow
down the charge rate of weapons. Tim had it this way in the old
combat code before tick 300. Also there were differences in what
level weapons were charged at, so changing this changed the power
boost of cloakers and the advantage that it provided them.

I'm not a fan of changing the combat movement code because it affects
so many things and frankly looks really good as it is. Some slight
enhancements to it would be welcome as they come along.

Race traits like the Centaurs flee has been nullified effectively
since combat is normally over before they can flee. Federation Scotty
bonus is just as effective and possibly slightly more so because even
though the VCR that we view is shorter, the Federation ships will
continue to repair themselves after ships have stopped firing.
Birdmen (Stormer, Scav, etc) cloak bonus has been toned down quite a
bit because of the charge rate and starting charge of weapons.

So its not just super weapons that are affected.

Magik

[Gabor Törö]

Post by Magik
When a unit participates in a combat, it's "next fight" possibility is
increased by 49 movement pulses. So, unless the combatants are
actively attempting to pursue your Raffa at comperable speeds or stop
you via tractor beam then you can get away. This demonstrates the
ability for the attackers to be able to corner you at least once and
engage in combat and the ability of the target to evade their
attackers for a while.

Ok. Thanks. I never had this so clear in mind.

Post by Magik
Adjusting the movement speed of units will not increase the VCR file
size that much, but reducing the amount of damage that weapons do
will. Both changes require a lot of coding and have a potential to
unbalance things. The easiest change (code-wise) would be to slow
down the charge rate of weapons. Tim had it this way in the old
combat code before tick 300. Also there were differences in what

I think one of the reasons was the ragnarok at the beginning of the old
combat: All units moved to the center and since tick 200 or so they were
allowed to move on their own. Most of the time the continue in the direction
for a while. Combat would had been pretty short if we had full charge rate.

And we changed it as it was clear that unit were able to effectively find
their targets and move towards them. We also decided not to give 2nd wave
object the bonus of full rate while the 1st units had to use reduced rate.

Post by Magik
level weapons were charged at, so changing this changed the power
boost of cloakers and the advantage that it provided them

This could be compensated by shifting powerboost to tick 0 and give cloakers
a shorter target time out at the begining of combat.
.

Post by Magik
Race traits like the Centaurs flee has been nullified effectively
since combat is normally over before they can flee. Federation Scotty

Not nullified but tuned down. They have mobile hulls and when set to stand
off, retreat or strike through the can live long enough.
Currently the show is in most vcr over long before 1500. And often even
before tick 500.

Post by Magik
So its not just super weapons that are affected.

Here's my suggestion:

- shift power boost cloak to tick 0 and make cloakers better in finding
their targets at the start.
- shift the power boost to tick 200 and power boost even objects in second
wave (then obejcts are in position to fire their SupW one time no matter if
they are 1st or 2nd wave)
- Let Objects be able to leave earlier and make sure that only objects which
go into into internal flee mode (either explicite retreat order or because
of heavy damage with not set to "stand at all costs") will leave. I think
tick 500 should be the order of magnitude.

Gabor