Currently tested behind the scenes

[GFM GToeroe]

Hi!

This is currently tested "behind the scenes":

Fixed: THe code in targetting which tries to "smell" the opponents
weaponary was not working correct
Fixed: Ship did not obey correctly their retreating order.
Changed: hconfig parameter FighterBeam|MissileDivisor produce default
strength at a value of 100. This parameter now influcences the wing
fire at all target types.
Fixed: Code let the missiles use the beam strength when trying to
penetrate enemy fighter armor
Changed: Put the limit of max 30 kills per SC shot after the first x
RND calcuation and before sand shields and EE/Bot bonuses are
executed. This exotic and bonuses now have again a meaning for all
wing sizes. Set the good odds for blast of a SC when penetrating
fighter armor back to 10
Modified: FighterBeam|Missile 15%|30% weapon strength boost
Fixex: Objects in strike thru attacked too early in the first attack
run. This is now fixed.
Modified: Objects in flee/peel off mode should now avoid better the
flight target. When hiding at the center Objects now change randomly
the direction of rotation.
Fixed: THe code didn't treated anti fighter setting correctly
Changed: Wings are now considered as charged if there is enough energy
to fire a desired number of salvos. The hconfig parameter
FiringFighterDivisor is the maximum number of fighters per type which
are allowed to fire per tick. This is one salvo. If missiles types
have not enough ammo anymore to fire this number of salvos but enough
energy to fire the remaining ammo then they are also regarded as
charged. If the number of desired salvos needs more energy than the
battery can hold then the type is also regarded as charged. If a type
has not enough ammo to fire a missile then it is handled as missile
less type. A wing waits until it can fire 5 missile salvos or 50 beam
salvos.
Changed: Made it so that Junk pods will have orbital thrusters enabled
and if Scavenged by ship, will dock to the ship.
New: Sandcaster spread fire: A sandcaster fires at all 10 targets of
the target list until it has fired at the first ship or the limit of
30 destroyed fighters per type is reached for all types.
New: Mobility for stations added: Hulls with hull speed = 0 or engine
count = 0 get a vurtual hull speed of 9 and a very low acceleration.
They are then less mobily than the slowest EE hulls.
Modified: Modified Wings will earlier try to stay away from targets
when in peel off mode due to the gatling phasor as new possible threat
Modified: The presence of missile weapons lets wings fire at max range
(but not more than 450). With no missile weapons the wing starts fires
if all weapons are in range(but not more than 450).
Modified: Changed the pure Sqr vcr ord dependency on the ord capacity
of a fighter type to a mixed linear/sqr function. Small ord capacities
take most profit from this:
' ord old new ratio
' 1 1,0 2,0 2,0
' 2 1,4 4,0 2,8
' 3 1,7 6,0 3,5
' 4 2,0 8,0 4,0
' 5 2,2 9,0 4,0
' 6 2,4 9,4 3,8
' 7 2,6 9,7 3,7
' 8 2,8 10,0 3,5 (Priv T3)
' 9 3,0 10,2 3,4
' 10 3,2 10,4 3,3 (Stormer T3)
' 11 3,3 10,6 3,2
' 12 3,5 10,8 3,1
' 13 3,6 11,0 3,1
' 14 3,7 11,2 3,0
' 15 3,9 11,3 2,9 (Bird T3)
' 20 4,5 12,0 2,7
' 50 7,1 14,8 2,1
' 100 10,0 17,8 1,8
' 250 15,8 23,7 1,5
' 500 22,4 30,3 1,4 (EE T3)

So small ord capacities gets 2-4 times more vcr ord than before and
even the EE T3 gets 40% more vcr ord.

GFM GToeroe

[Phaidros]

Post by GFM GToeroe
New: Mobility for stations added: Hulls with hull speed = 0 or engine
count = 0 get a vurtual hull speed of 9 and a very low acceleration.
They are then less mobily than the slowest EE hulls.

What's the station's starting position in the vcr: the outer rim or
somewhere near the center?

If it starts from the outer rim the starbase it won't be able to
defend a planetary base before the latter's destruction?

Phaidros

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by Phaidros

Post by GFM GToeroe
New: Mobility for stations added: Hulls with hull speed = 0 or engine
count = 0 get a vurtual hull speed of 9 and a very low acceleration.
They are then less mobily than the slowest EE hulls.

What's the station's starting position in the vcr: the outer rim or
somewhere near the center?
If it starts from the outer rim the starbase it won't be able to
defend a planetary base before the latter's destruction?
Phaidros

We are aware of this. I passed this particular job to Rick to find
good rules for this situation as the start positioning is his code
anyway.

Gabor

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by GFM GToeroe

Post by Phaidros

Post by GFM GToeroe
New: Mobility for stations added: Hulls with hull speed = 0 or engine
count = 0 get a vurtual hull speed of 9 and a very low acceleration.
They are then less mobily than the slowest EE hulls.

What's the station's starting position in the vcr: the outer rim or
somewhere near the center?
If it starts from the outer rim the starbase it won't be able to
defend a planetary base before the latter's destruction?
Phaidros

We are aware of this. I passed this particular job to Rick to find
good rules for this situation as the start positioning is his code
anyway.
Gabor

Station and ship with 0 speed, should next to the friendly base that
launched them (builded). If they are so slow and prone to be alone in
a VCR, there is no reason not to place them next to the base, center
of the screen.

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by GFM GToeroe
' ord old new ratio
' 1 1,0 2,0 2,0
' 2 1,4 4,0 2,8
' 3 1,7 6,0 3,5
' 4 2,0 8,0 4,0
' 5 2,2 9,0 4,0
' 6 2,4 9,4 3,8
' 7 2,6 9,7 3,7
' 8 2,8 10,0 3,5 (Priv T3)
' 9 3,0 10,2 3,4
' 10 3,2 10,4 3,3 (Stormer T3)
' 11 3,3 10,6 3,2
' 12 3,5 10,8 3,1
' 13 3,6 11,0 3,1
' 14 3,7 11,2 3,0
' 15 3,9 11,3 2,9 (Bird T3)
' 20 4,5 12,0 2,7
' 50 7,1 14,8 2,1
' 100 10,0 17,8 1,8
' 250 15,8 23,7 1,5
' 500 22,4 30,3 1,4 (EE T3)
So small ord capacities gets 2-4 times more vcr ord than before and
even the EE T3 gets 40% more vcr ord.
GFM GToeroe

This and the new default FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1 instead of 10
And the missile fighter begin to be useful again.

I'm not sure I understand what the other change to the fighter will
affect them.

Lord Lancelot

[Gabor Törö]

Post by Lord Lancelot
This and the new default FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1 instead of 10
And the missile fighter begin to be useful again.

Let's take "your" EE.

I took a Cube with 5SC15PPC, 20PL,10TL,Tyliums, 5 Tokamaks and 33 EE 0/0/10
wings.
A sim with not yet released host patch let the wings destroy the Cube (this
patch not yet knows SC spread fire)
33 10er T3 EE wings can fire 726 missiles (pure sqr formula, with the mixed
linear/sqr they have 40% more).
They needed 192 shots to kill the Cube.

We do not need to have FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1.

The Priv and Bird T3 show similiar strength but with the pure current sqr
they run out of missile in a single vcr.

Gabor

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by Gabor Törö

Post by Lord Lancelot
This and the new default FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1 instead of 10
And the missile fighter begin to be useful again.

Let's take "your" EE.
I took a Cube with 5SC15PPC, 20PL,10TL,Tyliums, 5 Tokamaks and 33 EE 0/0/10
wings.
A sim with not yet released host patch let the wings destroy the Cube (this
patch not yet knows SC spread fire)
33 10er T3 EE wings can fire 726 missiles (pure sqr formula, with the mixed
linear/sqr they have 40% more).
They needed 192 shots to kill the Cube.
We do not need to have FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1.
The Priv and Bird T3 show similiar strength but with the pure current sqr
they run out of missile in a single vcr.
Gabor

IF usinf VCR ord = 10, than EE type 3 goes from 2 vcr to 3. Still not
buying any.

Oh than missile fighter are still high priced fire once and throw
away.

33 X 10 X 90 = 29 700$ that a LOT of money.

Let say those wing intercepted a lone cube (unlikely alone) somewhere
in deep space using their fast 200ly to catch him.

A) The Cube is still alone when they catch him, they kill him, but are
out of ammo sitting duck. The fighter can be killed next turn by other
ships (or wings) since they are out of ammo.
I would prefer the EE type 3 has it's 200 missile, may need to fire a
bit more against 1 target to kill it (for balance), but has ord left
at the end of the VCR, to continue his roll of the long range Bomber
that can operate by itself for many turn.

B) A Surprise for some reason there not only 1 Cube there is more
ships with anti-fighters capacity. The fighter rapidly use their 3
missile do some damage than are killed easily dur to their mighty 60
beam range and 10 damage.

Fighter Alone are in danger of mines, out of fuel risk, face enemy
with greater number or different weaponry than expected, facing enemy
fighters backed up with ships...

To be useful fighter need to be backed by ships, but often you will do
better with all ships than using a few.

==Now for the Romulan type 3==
Going from 1 to 1 missile
Still useless
They where the starting defence of the Birdmen.

I would get back to the regular missile number, no SQR or VCR ord =10,
and simply reduce their power a bit so they are not too strong
(balanced) and big capacity like IMT or EE bomber can still have lot
of ord left after a combat.

Most fighter have low ord anyway, the best normally have 8-20.
And most missile fighter cost a lot to build.

Why would I risk big money on missile only fighter (all good one coat
a lot), when ships or beam fighter are no risk ?
Beam fighter always fire never need recharge, can still inflict damage
if the situation is not the one anticipated.

P.S.
Why do we need Missile fighter with extremely low ord capacity again ?
Too balance them ?
Wrong way, reduce their power instead.
Stats should be the easiest to understand, imagine a new player
learning the game starting at host 213h.
it may never know that 200 missile mean 3 missile in the vcr...

Lord Lancelot

[rumata]

Post by Lord Lancelot

Post by Gabor Törö
[...]
I took a Cube with 5SC15PPC, 20PL,10TL,Tyliums, 5 Tokamaks and 33 EE 0/0/10
wings.
A sim with not yet released host patch let the wings destroy the Cube (this
patch not yet knows SC spread fire)

[...]
Oh than missile fighter are still high priced fire once and throw
away.
33 X 10 X 90 = 29 700$ that a LOT of money.

You realize that the described cube costs the same amount of money (or
more, if you buy armor as well), don't you? Plus 4000 kt metal, plus a
few hundred thousand drones on board. And this is already fairly close
to an anti-fighter cube, for ship to ship combat I used to have two
sandcasters maximum.
So I'd actually say the fighters do better than they should in this
case.

Cheers,
Michael

[Gabor Törö]

Post by Gabor Törö

Post by Lord Lancelot
This and the new default FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1 instead of 10
And the missile fighter begin to be useful again.

Let's take "your" EE.
I took a Cube with 5SC15PPC, 20PL,10TL,Tyliums, 5 Tokamaks and 33 EE 0/0/10
wings.
A sim with not yet released host patch let the wings destroy the Cube (this
patch not yet knows SC spread fire)
33 10er T3 EE wings can fire 726 missiles (pure sqr formula, with the mixed
linear/sqr they have 40% more).
They needed 192 shots to kill the Cube.
We do not need to have FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1.
The Priv and Bird T3 show similiar strength but with the pure current sqr
they run out of missile in a single vcr.
Gabor
33 X 10 X 90 = 29 700$ that a LOT of money.

So what? The Cube is of same money plus minerals.

Post by Gabor Törö
A) The Cube is still alone when they catch him, they kill him, but are
out of ammo sitting duck. The fighter can be killed next turn by other
ships (or wings) since they are out of ammo.

You are wrong. They have enough missiles for killing 4 Cubes.

Post by Gabor Törö
B) A Surprise for some reason there not only 1 Cube there is more
ships with anti-fighters capacity. The fighter rapidly use their 3
missile do some damage than are killed easily dur to their mighty 60
beam range and 10 damage.

Then take for the additional the opponent obviously hasto spent additional
wings and everything is fine.

Post by Gabor Törö
==Now for the Romulan type 3==
Going from 1 to 1 missile
Still useless

You are again wrong. One fighter had Sqr(10)=3,16 and would have
8+Sqr(10-4)=10.4

Post by Gabor Törö
I would get back to the regular missile number, no SQR or VCR ord =10,
and simply reduce their power a bit so they are not too strong
(balanced) and big capacity like IMT or EE bomber can still have lot
of ord left after a combat.

You do not understand. Increasing the missiles would not do much. They
cannot fire them all. You have change the missiles drain and/or the charge
rate.

Post by Gabor Törö
Why would I risk big money on missile only fighter (all good one coat
a lot), when ships or beam fighter are no risk ?

Because most missile have a geater range. Setting them to strike thru will
let them try to stay out of range until they can fire 5 missiles salvos in
the mean. If then then return they are a real danger for the target ship.

Post by Gabor Törö
Beam fighter always fire never need recharge, can still inflict damage
if the situation is not the one anticipated.

They have lower range in the mean so they are more in danger to be
destroyed.

Post by Gabor Törö
Why do we need Missile fighter with extremely low ord capacity again ?
Too balance them ?

What makes life interesting? The differences. In planets it is the same. The
missiles you desires and which we had are just other beams. Then they have
no right of existence.

Post by Gabor Törö
Stats should be the easiest to understand, imagine a new player
learning the game starting at host 213h.

You are fighting wind mills. New players will habe no problem. The never
knew the old system. The old veterans, which are not able or not willing to
learn new longing for the good old days will have a problem, I think.

Before the new combat every fighter had different ord. Even in the
first version of the new combat fighters had different amount of ord
because the ratio was SQR(Ord)/Ord = 1/SOR(Ord). In general f(Ord)/Ord
where f is the map, which makes the vcr ord from the ord capacity
("Ord") parameter.

Unfortunately even in the old combat the fighter generator value, the
default missile drain and the charge formula didn't fit to the ord
capacity.

What we are trying it to bend the enourmous ord capacity spread in a
"fair" way into a smaller domain so that it better fits to the
formulas and standard default hconfigs.

I think more worse would be to change the charge formulas and/or
default missile drain because then drastic changes in the missile/beam
strength would be needed. And producing more fire events would make
rst bigger.

The problem we have is just that the race stats either were not
developed under close consideration of the formulas or the early
formulas which maybe were in better harmony are now changed too much.

And last but not least a number of missiles which lasts for most
fighters for one vcr fits better to the return home concept than a ord
load were one expect each fighter carrying its own missile freighter.

Gabor

[CrimsonRed]

To be honest, as a new person to VGAP4 (as of about last September),
I'm completely lost on how fighters actually work. The code has
changed so many times in just that short period of time that the wiki
is so out of date.
I know the basics ie that there are beam weapons and missiles with
each having accuracy and range. But other than that with all these
changes I'm so lost on how to effectively use them (or fight them).
To this point I haven't played a fighter race or played against a huge
fighter race but that is changing. It would be nice if the wiki code
was kept up to date with the changes, with a sample calculations. The
wiki page says "Details should now be updated to Host 208. Take care
that these algorithms are from "the old" space combat system prior to
Host 213 and are likely to be outdated."
So in reality, that page is useless.
Ever people who have experience who seem to be trying to keep up with
the changes are complaining. You might not get so much resistance if
you actually documented and explained (in detail with an example) how
a missile fighter uses ord, how long it lasts "ord" capacity lasts
etc, and how the calculations for a beam fighter work. I realise that
diplomat does some of this, but it doesn't explain where the numbers
are coming from in enough detail.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing you're changing it (as I don't know
how they worked before),I'm just saying that giving everyone a fair
chance at understanding would help your cause.

CrimsonRed

Post by Gabor Törö

Post by Gabor Törö

Post by Lord Lancelot
This and the new default FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1 instead of 10
And the missile fighter begin to be useful again.

Let's take "your" EE.
I took a Cube with 5SC15PPC, 20PL,10TL,Tyliums, 5 Tokamaks and 33 EE 0/0/10
wings.
A sim with not yet released host patch let the wings destroy the Cube (this
patch not yet knows SC spread fire)
33 10er T3 EE wings can fire 726 missiles (pure sqr formula, with the mixed
linear/sqr they have 40% more).
They needed 192 shots to kill the Cube.
We do not need to have FighterMissileVCROrdUsage = 1.
The Priv and Bird T3 show similiar strength but with the pure current sqr
they run out of missile in a single vcr.
Gabor
33 X 10 X 90 = 29 700$ that a LOT of money.

So what? The Cube is of same money plus minerals.

Post by Gabor Törö
A) The Cube is still alone when they catch him, they kill him, but are
out of ammo sitting duck. The fighter can be killed next turn by other
ships (or wings) since they are out of ammo.

You are wrong. They have enough missiles for killing 4 Cubes.

Post by Gabor Törö
B) A Surprise for some reason there not only 1 Cube there is more
ships with anti-fighters capacity. The fighter rapidly use their 3
missile do some damage than are killed easily dur to their mighty 60
beam range and 10 damage.

Then take for the additional the opponent obviously hasto spent additional
wings and everything is fine.

Post by Gabor Törö
==Now for the Romulan type 3==
Going from 1 to 1 missile
Still useless

You are again wrong. One fighter had Sqr(10)=3,16 and would have
8+Sqr(10-4)=10.4

Post by Gabor Törö
I would get back to the regular missile number, no SQR or VCR ord =10,
and simply reduce their power a bit so they are not too strong
(balanced) and big capacity like IMT or EE bomber can still have lot
of ord left after a combat.

You do not understand. Increasing the missiles would not do much. They
cannot fire them all. You have change the missiles drain and/or the charge
rate.

Post by Gabor Törö
Why would I risk big money on missile only fighter (all good one coat
a lot), when ships or beam fighter are no risk ?

Because most missile have a geater range. Setting them to strike thru will
let them try to stay out of range until they can fire 5 missiles salvos in
the mean. If then then return they are a real danger for the target ship.

Post by Gabor Törö
Beam fighter always fire never need recharge, can still inflict damage
if the situation is not the one anticipated.

They have lower range in the mean so they are more in danger to be
destroyed.

Post by Gabor Törö
Why do we need Missile fighter with extremely low ord capacity again ?
Too balance them ?

What makes life interesting? The differences. In planets it is the same. The
missiles you desires and which we had are just other beams. Then they have
no right of existence.

Post by Gabor Törö
Stats should be the easiest to understand, imagine a new player
learning the game starting at host 213h.

You are fighting wind mills. New players will habe no problem. The never
knew the old system. The old veterans, which are not able or not willing to
learn new longing for the good old days will have a problem, I think.
Before the new combat every fighter had different ord. Even in the
first version of the new combat fighters had different amount of ord
because the ratio was SQR(Ord)/Ord = 1/SOR(Ord). In general f(Ord)/Ord
where f is the map, which makes the vcr ord from the ord capacity
("Ord") parameter.
Unfortunately even in the old combat the fighter generator value, the
default missile drain and the charge formula didn't fit to the ord
capacity.
What we are trying it to bend the enourmous ord capacity spread in a
"fair" way into a smaller domain so that it better fits to the
formulas and standard default hconfigs.
I think more worse would be to change the charge formulas and/or
default missile drain because then drastic changes in the missile/beam
strength would be needed. And producing more fire events would make
rst bigger.
The problem we have is just that the race stats either were not
developed under close consideration of the formulas or the early
formulas which maybe were in better harmony are now changed too much.
And last but not least a number of missiles which lasts for most
fighters for one vcr fits better to the return home concept than a ord
load were one expect each fighter carrying its own missile freighter.
Gabor

[Gabor Törö]

We spent hour and hours to write The Battle Manual, which contains all changes of the new space combat coming with host 213.

Post by CrimsonRed
To be honest, as a new person to VGAP4 (as of about last September),
I'm completely lost on how fighters actually work. The code has
changed so many times in just that short period of time that the wiki
is so out of date.

The Battle Manual is up to date.

Post by CrimsonRed
I know the basics ie that there are beam weapons and missiles with
each having accuracy and range. But other than that with all these
changes I'm so lost on how to effectively use them (or fight them).

When I began to play planets and combat things were unclear to me then I have always simmed my actual played race against the actual opponent's race.

Post by CrimsonRed
Ever people who have experience who seem to be trying to keep up with
the changes are complaining. You might not get so much resistance if
you actually documented and explained (in detail with an example) how
a missile fighter uses ord, how long it lasts "ord" capacity lasts

ORD

Post by CrimsonRed
etc, and how the calculations for a beam fighter work. I realise that

Wings

Wings versus Wings

Post by CrimsonRed
I'm not saying it's a bad thing you're changing it (as I don't know
how they worked before),I'm just saying that giving everyone a fair
chance at understanding would help your cause.

I do what I can with my contributions to the Battle Manual (many thanks to all the others who gave my ugly formatted attemps a better and clearer look) and answering almost every question refering to the new space combat here, at Drewheads and in VGAP-93.

GFM GToeroe

[CrimsonRed]

Post by Gabor Törö
We spent hour and hours to write The Battle Manual, which contains all changes of the new space combat coming with host 213.

Post by CrimsonRed
To be honest, as a new person to VGAP4 (as of about last September),
I'm completely lost on how fighters actually work. The code has
changed so many times in just that short period of time that the wiki
is so out of date.

The Battle Manual is up to date.

Post by CrimsonRed
I know the basics ie that there are beam weapons and missiles with
each having accuracy and range. But other than that with all these
changes I'm so lost on how to effectively use them (or fight them).

When I began to play planets and combat things were unclear to me then I have always simmed my actual played race against the actual opponent's race.

Post by CrimsonRed
Ever people who have experience who seem to be trying to keep up with
the changes are complaining. You might not get so much resistance if
you actually documented and explained (in detail with an example) how
a missile fighter uses ord, how long it lasts "ord" capacity lasts

ORD

Post by CrimsonRed
etc, and how the calculations for a beam fighter work. I realise that

Wings
Wings versus Wings

Post by CrimsonRed
I'm not saying it's a bad thing you're changing it (as I don't know
how they worked before),I'm just saying that giving everyone a fair
chance at understanding would help your cause.

I do what I can with my contributions to the Battle Manual (many thanks to all the others who gave my ugly formatted attemps a better and clearer look) and answering almost every question refering to the new space combat here, at Drewheads and in VGAP-93.
GFM GToeroe

Sorry. I never found the battle manuals on the wiki until now.
Whenever I search for wing stuff it came up with the old pages. Nice
work.

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by CrimsonRed
Sorry. I never found the battle manuals on the wiki until now.
Whenever I search for wing stuff it came up with the old pages. Nice
work.

Currently we only work on the battle manual. If the new space combat
has settled and has taken a stable state, then we continue to edit the
other WIKI pages based on what then is in the battle manual.

So when searching for space combat related things I suggest that you
look in the battle manual and in the "new contribution section"

GFM GToeroe

[Phaidros]

Lord Lancelot has some good points. I understand that the spread of
the actual usage of missiles in a vcr can't reflect the large spread
of the races' ord capacity stats.

The table with the latest changes shows a very drastic compression of
the stats space. And I wonder whether one should not distinguish
between the amount of missiles used in the vcr and the missile ord
capacity as such. A EE T3 with a 500 ord capacity has lots of carrying
capacity which should express itself in being supply-independent over
several vcrs/turns. So keep the cap of missiles used per vcr but allow
the overall storage capacity to come into play.

I like that carriers are more inportant now, but I don't like the idea
of a wing whith a large ord capacity flying on its own on the
territorial periphery being a lame duck after a single encounter with
an enemy ship or wing.

Phaidros


Ord capacity Vcr ord old Vcr ord new Factor of change
1 1.0 2.0 2.0
2 1.4 4.0 2.8
3 1.7 6.0 3.5
4 2.0 8.0 4.0
5 2.2 9.0 4.0
6 2.4 9.4 3.8
7 2.6 9.7 3.7
8 2.8 10.0 3.5 (Priv T3)
9 3.0 10.2 3.4
10 3.2 10.4 3.3 (Stormer T3)
11 3.3 10.6 3.2
12 3.5 10.8 3.1
13 3.6 11.0 3.1
14 3.7 11.2 3.0
15 3.9 11.3 2.9 (Bird T3)
20 4.5 12.0 2.7
50 7.1 14.8 2.1
100 10.0 17.8 1.8
250 15.8 23.7 1.5
500 22.4 30.3 1.4 (EE T3)

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by Phaidros
I like that carriers are more inportant now, but I don't like the idea
of a wing whith a large ord capacity flying on its own on the
territorial periphery being a lame duck after a single encounter with
an enemy ship or wing.

With the new combat combats often lasts 150-200 ticks. Below you can
see how many missiles a wing of 50 fighters can fire and how many
ticks it needs AT LEAST to fire them. So a lot types have missiles for
two or more fights. With the old combat missile types had much more
missiles but they needed even more time to fire all of them. If you
exclude micro wing of 10 or less then now the missiles can even be
fired faster than before. So although there is a cut in the missiles,
missile type's missiles are more dangerous than before. Some peoples
uses supply pods,mini bases or ships to support my stand alone wings.
And with carrier's wings can really be nasty.

Be creative to circumvent the problems (if there are really any) and
find a solution! This way it was always in planets!

GFM GToeroe

Missiles Ticks Type
86 1720 B22 Kaisi Bomber
60 1500 C2 Salt
86 1433 Eagle
100 1429 Axehead Class Bomber
89 1271 Conviction Standard Fighter
45 1125 C3 Alum Spark
56 1120 S/Ai-383 Wraith
89 1113 B74 Hawk Class Fighter
106 1060 Vra Fighter Bomber
106 1060 Pesticide Advanced Fighter
73 1043 Iron Shell Fighter
93 1033 K5 class Heavy Fighter
151 1007 B31 Tripod
93 930 Io Class Fighter
93 930 Lizio Class Fighter
139 927 AR-222 Seagull
89 890 Dragonfly Multirole Fighter
77 770 T4 Shellshock
110 733 F400 Bomber
110 733 P28 Albatross Class Bomber
73 730 Havoc Fightingstar
70 700 R2 Foxdire
102 680 AS-480 Assault Fighter
126 630 HF-96 Scua
118 590 DOA-187x Bomber
73 456 S23 Falcom Class Intercepter
52 433 V10 Snake
73 406 Si-90 Poppy Strike Fighter
77 385 FB300 Fighter
55 367 Quad Wing Star Lancer
50 333 Cutlass
65 325 Neutron
83 277 FB211 Ahir Fighter
63 242 Thunder Dancer
56 215 Voltar G
52 208 Thunder Hammer
126 115 Bizmuth Zepplin

[Phaidros]

That is very valuable information that you present here. However, it
is even more disturbing!

Given what you say about the average duration of a vcr now most of the
bombers are practically useless as bombers because the outcome of the
vcr will have occurred before even a single missile was fired. IMO i
makes more sense to compress this 'ticks to fire' statistic to a much
smaller range than the number of missiles.

Phaidros

[Gabor Törö]

Post by Phaidros
That is very valuable information that you present here. However, it
is even more disturbing!
Given what you say about the average duration of a vcr now most of the
bombers are practically useless as bombers because the outcome of the
vcr will have occurred before even a single missile was fired. IMO i
makes more sense to compress this 'ticks to fire' statistic to a much
smaller range than the number of missiles.

Phaidros, are you joking?

83 277 FB211 Ahir Fighter

means that 50 Ahirs can fire 83 missiles and they need at least 277 to do
this.

Gabor

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by Gabor Törö

Post by Phaidros
That is very valuable information that you present here. However, it
is even more disturbing!
Given what you say about the average duration of a vcr now most of the
bombers are practically useless as bombers because the outcome of the
vcr will have occurred before even a single missile was fired. IMO i
makes more sense to compress this 'ticks to fire' statistic to a much
smaller range than the number of missiles.

Phaidros, are you joking?
83 277 FB211 Ahir Fighter
means that 50 Ahirs can fire 83 missiles and they need at least 277 to do
this.
Gabor

Like if Centaur could buy 50 ahirs, in a real game with 2 neighbour
not playing sim city style.

I agree the amount of time between missile firing should be reduced.
The table should end at tick 300

As vcr never last longer.

And yes EE type 3 and imt type / should have ord for many vcr, without
the need to reload, since they have huge ord capacity.

Lord Lancelot

[Gabor Törö]

Post by Lord Lancelot
Like if Centaur could buy 50 ahirs, in a real game with 2 neighbour
not playing sim city style.

It was a table which showed the missiles and time needed to fire them all.
for all missile types if the wing contains 50 of them. At Drewhead there is
a game with a Centaur, which at least had one neighbor not playing sim city
style, a Bot to be concrete, which is not playing anymore. These Cents could
by more than 100 Ahirs/trn. The Cents have 80 Ahirs at turn 1.

Post by Lord Lancelot
I agree the amount of time between missile firing should be reduced.
The table should end at tick 300

upper or lower bound?

Post by Lord Lancelot
And yes EE type 3 and imt type / should have ord for many vcr, without
the need to reload, since they have huge ord capacity.

What's about a new hconfig: [ ] Lord Lancelot's Tripods :)

Gabor

[Phaidros]

Post by Gabor Törö
Phaidros, are you joking?
83 277 FB211 Ahir Fighter
means that 50 Ahirs can fire 83 missiles and they need at least 277 to do
this.
Gabor

No, I am just wondering how the vcr's look like until I can sim it
myself with the new host. Your example is from the lower bound of
values. What's with the upper bound? What would be your argument why a
Birdman should equip a carrier with a wing of 50 Eagles instead of 50
Voltar Gs. The latter cost double the amount, but the Eagle wing waits
7 times longer until it starts firing its missiles. At tick 1400 the
Eagle wing's carrier is most probably dead, if the Eagle wing isn't
allowed to reload its battery earlier by docking with the carrier.

Phaidros

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by Phaidros

Post by Gabor Törö
Phaidros, are you joking?
83 277 FB211 Ahir Fighter
means that 50 Ahirs can fire 83 missiles and they need at least 277 to do
this.
Gabor

No, I am just wondering how the vcr's look like until I can sim it
myself with the new host. Your example is from the lower bound of
values. What's with the upper bound? What would be your argument why a
Birdman should equip a carrier with a wing of 50 Eagles instead of 50
Voltar Gs. The latter cost double the amount, but the Eagle wing waits
7 times longer until it starts firing its missiles. At tick 1400 the
Eagle wing's carrier is most probably dead, if the Eagle wing isn't
allowed to reload its battery earlier by docking with the carrier.
Phaidros

I'm currently working on the conditions for wings when they should go
into internal return home mode.

But apart from this one has to accept that just not every missile type
is suited for return home mode.

Gabor

[Phaidros]

If a wing is set to "Strike through":
a) when does its first attack run start?
b) when does it try for the first time to dock to a carrier to
recharge its battery?

Phaidros

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by Phaidros
a) when does its first attack run start?

The rule we will have is that a wing waits until it can fire 50 beams
and/or 5 missiles.

Of course if the batteries or the ammo are the limiting factor then it
waits until the batteries are full/untilö it has enough energy to fire
the missiles.

With the standard settings for wing charge divisor, firing fighter
divisor, missile and beam drain a generator of 10 needs ~ 50 ticks.
This 50 ticks are also the minimum time a strike thru object spends
for peeling off (stay away from the targets and recharge) in strike
thru. So an object needs at least 50 ticks before it will do its
attack run.

Post by Phaidros
b) when does it try for the first time to dock to a carrier to
recharge its battery?

We may have the rule that a missile type can go into return home mode
if either there isn't enough ammo to fire at leat one missiles or if
it has not enough energy to fire 50 beams or 5 missiles. But currently
I'm not completely satisfied with it.

The Battle Manual (WIKI) should contain the rules for the actual host
213h.

Gabor

[Phaidros]

Post by GFM GToeroe

Post by Phaidros
a) when does its first attack run start?

The rule we will have is that a wing waits until it can fire 50 beams
and/or 5 missiles.
Of course if the batteries or the ammo are the limiting factor then it
waits until the batteries are full/untilö it has enough energy to fire
the missiles.
With the standard settings for wing charge divisor, firing fighter
divisor, missile and beam drain a generator of 10 needs ~ 50 ticks.
This 50 ticks are also the minimum time a strike thru object spends
for peeling off (stay away from the targets and recharge) in strike
thru. So an object needs at least 50 ticks before it will do its
attack run.

Post by Phaidros
b) when does it try for the first time to dock to a carrier to
recharge its battery?

We may have the rule that a missile type can go into return home mode
if either there isn't enough ammo to fire at leat one missiles or if
it has not enough energy to fire 50 beams or 5 missiles. But currently
I'm not completely satisfied with it.
The Battle Manual (WIKI) should contain the rules for the actual host
213h.
Gabor

Further questions:
a) Does a wing's battery size grow with wing size or is it fixed. In
other words: do large wings charge their batteries faster?
b) in which instances does battery size come into play with the new
combat code?
* it is mentioned once when redocking with a carrier: the wing
gets a full battery charge
* how does it work with other attack modes?
* does a wing 'lose' surplus generated energy after the battery
size limit has been reached and no enemy is
in reach to fire beams or missiles on?

Phaidros

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by Phaidros

Post by GFM GToeroe

Post by Phaidros
a) when does its first attack run start?

The rule we will have is that a wing waits until it can fire 50 beams
and/or 5 missiles.
Of course if the batteries or the ammo are the limiting factor then it
waits until the batteries are full/untilö it has enough energy to fire
the missiles.
With the standard settings for wing charge divisor, firing fighter
divisor, missile and beam drain a generator of 10 needs ~ 50 ticks.
This 50 ticks are also the minimum time a strike thru object spends
for peeling off (stay away from the targets and recharge) in strike
thru. So an object needs at least 50 ticks before it will do its
attack run.

Post by Phaidros
b) when does it try for the first time to dock to a carrier to
recharge its battery?

We may have the rule that a missile type can go into return home mode
if either there isn't enough ammo to fire at leat one missiles or if
it has not enough energy to fire 50 beams or 5 missiles. But currently
I'm not completely satisfied with it.
The Battle Manual (WIKI) should contain the rules for the actual host
213h.
Gabor

a) Does a wing's battery size grow with wing size or is it fixed. In

Yes and no. :)

If you look at a type's stats then you can discover the parameter
"battery". This is the amount of energy one fighter of this type can
carry. The total amount of enery a type can carry within a wing is
fighter count times battery.

Post by Phaidros
other words: do large wings charge their batteries faster?

No. This only depends on the generator value. A type winthin a wings
cahrges the batteries with generator times fighter count divided by
the hconfig parameter "wing charge divisor",which is by default equal
to 50.

Post by Phaidros
b) in which instances does battery size come into play with the new
combat code?

A type within a wing is allowed to fire fighter count divided by the
hconfig parameter "firing fighter divisor" times per tick. This is
what I call a "full salvo". The hconfig parameter "firing fighter
divisor" is by default equal to 50. So if you have 1000 fighter of one
type in a wing then this type is allowed to fire 1000/50 = 20 fighter
weapons per tick (beans am missiles). So here we have a full salvo of
20.

There is code which checks if weapons are charged. For wings a wing is
then regarded as charged if can fire a certain number of salvos. In
strike thru a wing waits until it has this energy for all the present
types in the wing. So when the wing then finally switches to its
attack run there is enough energy to fire for a number of ticks
several full salvos to inflict damage during a minum amount of time.

Bigger batteries support this, especially full salvos of missiles.

An in return home mode a wing gets all its batteries charged fully.
Such wings can fire a lot full salovs and are very dangerous.

Post by Phaidros
* it is mentioned once when redocking with a carrier: the wing
gets a full battery charge
* how does it work with other attack modes?

Return home can be combined with other attack modes. If the wing is
empty enough it will return to its carrier.

Post by Phaidros
* does a wing 'lose' surplus generated energy after the battery
size limit has been reached and no enemy is
in reach to fire beams or missiles on?

Yes.

Gabor

[Phaidros]

Post by GFM GToeroe
There is code which checks if weapons are charged. For wings a wing is
then regarded as charged if can fire a certain number of salvos. In
strike thru a wing waits until it has this energy for all the present
types in the wing. So when the wing then finally switches to its
attack run there is enough energy to fire for a number of ticks
several full salvos to inflict damage during a minum amount of time.
Bigger batteries support this, especially full salvos of missiles.
An in return home mode a wing gets all its batteries charged fully.
Such wings can fire a lot full salovs and are very dangerous.

Thanks again.

How does it work with micro-wings? In the extreme n=1. Therefore the
battery size statistic counts as given. Let's say the fighter type has
a battery size of 250.

When does this lone fighter start its first attack run?

Phaidros

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by Phaidros

Post by GFM GToeroe
There is code which checks if weapons are charged. For wings a wing is
then regarded as charged if can fire a certain number of salvos. In
strike thru a wing waits until it has this energy for all the present
types in the wing. So when the wing then finally switches to its
attack run there is enough energy to fire for a number of ticks
several full salvos to inflict damage during a minum amount of time.
Bigger batteries support this, especially full salvos of missiles.
An in return home mode a wing gets all its batteries charged fully.
Such wings can fire a lot full salovs and are very dangerous.

Thanks again.
How does it work with micro-wings? In the extreme n=1. Therefore the
battery size statistic counts as given. Let's say the fighter type has
a battery size of 250.
When does this lone fighter start its first attack run?
Phaidros

I'm currently working on this so that wings of any sizes have a
resonable timing.

Gabor