Important informations about wings!

[GFM GToeroe]

Hi!

I have updated the battle manual:

http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/The_Battle_Manual#Firing
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/The_Battle_Manual:Weapon_Charging#Wings
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/The_Battle_Manual:Weapon_Charging#ORD

The most important here is that missile fighter types do not carry
OrdCapacity (from fighter stats) into vcr but SQR(OrdCapacity). This
is called vcr-ord. Currently they also use 10 vcr-ord per shot by
default.

Keep in mind that a fighter currrently uses 100 energy by default and
charges with generator/50. So the time to charge one missile is 5000/
generator. So one fighter with a generator of 10 needs at least 500
ticks to fire its missile. 100 fighters need 5 tick to charge one
missile. Keep also in mind that wing can return to the carrier to load
new ord.

There is the F := FiringFighterDivisor hconfig parameter. This means
if N is the fighter count of a type in a wing then only Round(N/F)
fighters are allowed to fire per tick. At N=10000 the maximum is
reached. If N<F then with a chance of F/N the type can fire one shot.
Types with a generator > 10 get additional allowed shots. The bonus
increaes with generator value and reaches at the IMT T3 a maximum of
1.9 addittional allowed shots in the mean. Of course these bonus for
the allowed shots does not mean that the wing uses it. The battery has
to be charged enough.

The ord thing is finally not decided. If you think your wings are
firing not enough missiles then adjust the hconfig parameter "Fighter
missile vcr ord usage". It could turn out that 1 is the better default
value.

GFM GToeroe

[Lord Lancelot]

Post by GFM GToeroe
The ord thing is finally not decided. If you think your wings are
firing not enough missiles then adjust the hconfig parameter "Fighter
missile vcr ord usage". It could turn out that 1 is the better default
value.
GFM GToeroe

SQR(OrdCapacity) is enough, I hope the default missile vcr would
become 1 soon.

Think of the birdmen type who cost a lot and has only 15 stat ord, now
with the default 10, it fire once and close to 100 range to be killed
by ships, they are also lot of other fighter with low ord stat, that
are now worthless.
The current default punish low ord fighter and make them useless.

Lord Lancelot

[Sebastian]

Post by Lord Lancelot
Think of the birdmen type who cost a lot and has only 15 stat ord, now
with the default 10, it fire once and close to 100 range to be killed
by ships, they are also lot of other fighter with low ord stat, that
are now worthless.
The current default punish low ord fighter and make them useless.

That's why the redock feature is there(return home switch:) The fresh
relaunched fighters have full ord and also full batteries.

Sebastian

[Amaranthine]

Is it a Touch & Go maneuver or will the Wing disappear for a few
ticks?

Post by Sebastian
That's why the redock feature is there(return home switch:) The fresh
relaunched fighters have full ord and also full batteries.

[Sebastian]

Post by Amaranthine
Is it a Touch & Go maneuver or will the Wing disappear for a few
ticks?

The wing will reappear if the carrier is not under heavy fire. Beware
that if the carrier is destroyed if the wing is currently docked the
wing will also be destroyed.

Sebastian

[protomatter]

so heres my thoughts on power of fighters.

Fighter power consists now of
1) high travel range (anything 100+ seems to have a value for solo
wings)
2) high ord loads ( anything with a ord load of 20 or greater appears
be advantageous)
3) high armor ( less than 20 armor seems to die very quickly, higher
than 20 armor im not real sure but so far its like the same as having
20 armor)

now after looking over the fighter current stats for the different
races, ive notice some costs that make some wings pointless to buy.

1 example the UA type 2 seems to be more impressive for the money.
the Evil empires tripod is now an outstanding fighter for it money
the draconian type 2 is the elite fighter for the dracs now, wheras
the type 3 is rather useless to buy for its minor armor upgrade, and
loss of combat powers due to costs.
same thing for the scavengers, type 3 advantages over type 2 are not
cost efficient anymore.

are theyre any plans to rebalance fighters within the races? or will
that be a race creator issue?

Proto

[GFM GToeroe]

Post by protomatter
so heres my thoughts on power of fighters.
Fighter power consists now of
1) high travel range (anything 100+ seems to have a value for solo
wings)
2) high ord loads ( anything with a ord load of 20 or greater appears
be advantageous)
3) high armor ( less than 20 armor seems to die very quickly, higher
than 20 armor im not real sure but so far its like the same as having
20 armor)
now after looking over the fighter current stats for the different
races, ive notice some costs that make some wings pointless to buy.
1 example the UA type 2 seems to be more impressive for the money.
the Evil empires tripod is now an outstanding fighter for it money
the draconian type 2 is the elite fighter for the dracs now, wheras
the type 3 is rather useless to buy for its minor armor upgrade, and
loss of combat powers due to costs.
same thing for the scavengers, type 3 advantages over type 2 are not
cost efficient anymore.
are theyre any plans to rebalance fighters within the races? or will
that be a race creator issue?
Proto

When trying to implement the changes to wings I took EE, Rebel, CoM,
Bot, Solorian, Ahir and Thunder Hammer to get promising results. The
five races are said to be fighter races. The Ahir and Thunder Hammer
are in some means extreme and important fighters.

The other fighter just had to "stand" the changes.

We will not change the race pack as this was the primary directive. It
up to the race creators to change if the want to.

But we had in the past a lot of critical changes where the packs
stayed uncahged. Think of the + .99 in the wing charge formula or the
penalties/bonuses for small/large wings. Many bays sizes of carriers
become meaningless.

So I suggest just to try out the new system for several months and
identify crappy things in the new system and heal them before chaging
the packs. I think it is more a matter of adapting to the new rules.

We tried to give a lot important things a direct and observable
meaning (combat quickness, attack switches, armor, beam|missile
strength, generator) which is certainly in terms of the intention of
the certain race creator's chosen stats.

For example I do not think the the creator made the Ahir cost 500mc
plus 70 armor and high beam and generator stats without intention. I
can't believe that he wants to let the Ahir only look good on the
paper. An expensive wing will appear in small wing sizes. One kill of
an Ahir fighter costs 500mc which pays 100 Rutzies. So if I should
guess then the creator's intention was to let the Ahir live long
enough in space combat and inflict comparable damage to its enemies
before it dies.

Nothing else we had done. If a race creator set the bay size of a
carrier to a certain amount then I think he didn't do this just for
fun. But if it makes no sense to fill the carrier with this size then
something is wrong. So we introduced the "Return Home" mode to give
wings which come docked from bays an incentive to do this. But for
this wings had to run out of ammo. So we changed the amount of ord a
wing has in vcr and the usage of vcr-ord for a missile shot to let
wing run out of ammo fast enough to re-dock often enough.

And when a race creator gave a fighter type a evasive of 100 then I
think he wants that this fighter to behave different from a fighter
with 50 evasive. But what a pity if there is no influence for evasive
above 80 (only an example!) due to of artificial cut offs in the code.

So we re-vamped the fighter firing and anti fighter code so that even
an evasive of 1000 is better then 100 (of course only by a small
amount as this process can be understood as a monotone increasing
tranformation of [0,oo) into the interval [0,1) )

The process is still not finished as for example the wing versus ship
code almost follow the old system (only the artificial penalties/
bonuses for small/large wings are removed).

The new code just follows the given stats and orders in a much more
direct and observable way. Future race creators will certainly have a
much more feeling for their babies during creating process.

But feel free to point to crappy and unbalanced things in the new
system. We need your (and all other's) help.

Gabor

[Joyride]

Post by GFM GToeroe

Post by protomatter
so heres my thoughts on power of fighters.
Fighter power consists now of
1) high travel range (anything 100+ seems to have a value for solo
wings)
2) high ord loads ( anything with a ord load of 20 or greater appears
be advantageous)
3) high armor ( less than 20 armor seems to die very quickly, higher
than 20 armor im not real sure but so far its like the same as having
20 armor)
now after looking over the fighter current stats for the different
races, ive notice some costs that make some wings pointless to buy.
1 example the UA type 2 seems to be more impressive for the money.
the Evil empires tripod is now an outstanding fighter for it money
the draconian type 2 is the elite fighter for the dracs now, wheras
the type 3 is rather useless to buy for its minor armor upgrade, and
loss of combat powers due to costs.
same thing for the scavengers, type 3 advantages over type 2 are not
cost efficient anymore.
are theyre any plans to rebalance fighters within the races? or will
that be a race creator issue?
Proto

When trying to implement the changes to wings I took EE, Rebel, CoM,
Bot, Solorian, Ahir and Thunder Hammer to get promising results. The
five races are said to be fighter races. The Ahir and Thunder Hammer
are in some means extreme and important fighters.
The other fighter just had to "stand" the changes.
We will not change the race pack as this was the primary directive. It
up to the race creators to change if the want to.
But we had in the past a lot of critical changes where the packs
stayed uncahged. Think of the + .99 in the wing charge formula or the
penalties/bonuses for small/large wings. Many bays sizes of carriers
become meaningless.
So I suggest just to try out the new system for several months and
identify crappy things in the new system and heal them before chaging
the packs. I think it is more a matter of adapting to the new rules.
We tried to give a lot important things a direct and observable
meaning (combat quickness, attack switches, armor, beam|missile
strength, generator) which is certainly in terms of the intention of
the certain race creator's chosen stats.
For example I do not think the the creator made the Ahir cost 500mc
plus 70 armor and high beam and generator stats without intention. I
can't believe that he wants to let the Ahir only look good on the
paper. An expensive wing will appear in small wing sizes. One kill of
an Ahir fighter costs 500mc which pays 100 Rutzies. So if I should
guess then the creator's intention was to let the Ahir live long
enough in space combat and inflict comparable damage to its enemies
before it dies.
Nothing else we had done. If a race creator set the bay size of a
carrier to a certain amount then I think he didn't do this just for
fun. But if it makes no sense to fill the carrier with this size then
something is wrong. So we introduced the "Return Home" mode to give
wings which come docked from bays an incentive to do this. But for
this wings had to run out of ammo. So we changed the amount of ord a
wing has in vcr and the usage of vcr-ord for a missile shot to let
wing run out of ammo fast enough to re-dock often enough.
And when a race creator gave a fighter type a evasive of 100 then I
think he wants that this fighter to behave different from a fighter
with 50 evasive. But what a pity if there is no influence for evasive
above 80 (only an example!) due to of artificial cut offs in the code.
So we re-vamped the fighter firing and anti fighter code so that even
an evasive of 1000 is better then 100 (of course only by a small
amount as this process can be understood as a monotone increasing
tranformation of [0,oo) into the interval [0,1) )
The process is still not finished as for example the wing versus ship
code almost follow the old system (only the artificial penalties/
bonuses for small/large wings are removed).
The new code just follows the given stats and orders in a much more
direct and observable way. Future race creators will certainly have a
much more feeling for their babies during creating process.
But feel free to point to crappy and unbalanced things in the new
system. We need your (and all other's) help.
Gabor

This is the best post I have seen for a long time. I appreciate
everyone who contributes his time via bug reporting and raising his
opinion here in the ng. But we should give this mammoth-work of Gabor
and all others involved not only a warm welcome but the some time to
evolve.
And remember: Just only because it is different, it can even be better
than the old code (which I believe!).

Joyride

[Phaidros]

Post by Joyride
This is the best post I have seen for a long time. I appreciate
everyone who contributes his time via bug reporting and raising his
opinion here in the ng. But we should give this mammoth-work of Gabor
and all others involved not only a warm welcome but the some time to
evolve.
And remember: Just only because it is different, it can even be better
than the old code (which I believe!).
Joyride

Hear, hear.

Phaidros

[protomatter]

Post by GFM GToeroe
But feel free to point to crappy and unbalanced things in the new
system. We need your (and all other's) help.
Gabor

fabulous work to date gabor, i wouldnt trade it for the old combat
code at all i love the new direction this has been heading into and
applaud the changes., just taking the time to understand it and
sharing that with you and the public in case i got it wrong.

Proto