This is why I dislike races with native dustoffs

[KlingonKommand]

So here I am playing Privateers for the first time, in Weekend Warrior.

Let's have a look at my homeworld base's storage. It's turn 53.

Large weapons: 444 - about 3% of these were actually *built* by me. The
rest come from Amphibians. Ie my Native Dustoffs.

I don't think anyone else has a fraction of the number of Amphibians
I've got because, as we all know, natives are NOT distributed randomly
either by Master.exe or ScriptZ0r, but clump together with planets with
imilar ID numbers having similar natives. And hosts / map creators
invariably number planets sequentially so nearby ones have similar
numbers (something I thought had been solved in VGAP3 days, where
similarly critical issues to do with base building depended on ID
number). Anyhow, with the dozens and dozens of gatling phasors I've
proven invulnerable to everything the fighter races could throw at me.

Engines: 1,062. Now very few of these actually come from my *own* Ghips,
I only had a few. They clustered near the UA, but he podded them all up
to move homeworld when the last one got a bit uncomfortable... then
dropped out of the game allowing me to assiduously gather them all up.
Most of those engines are FTL-1's or better. I bet his remaining ally is
most displeased.

Anyhow, bottom line is that my... Privateers... are one scary bunch of
fighting ships which I can build for a pittance.

My point is this. I never understood why the amount of Free Stuff that
natives made got boosted by a factor of at least 10, maybe 100 (this was
many hosts ago). I have not seen a Rebel lose for a long time, and
having played Privs now I see just how ridiculously easy it is to win,
without really trying, when you have native dustoffs on some low tech /
starting ships.
--
KlingonKommand

[Lord Lancelot]

On Jun 23, 4:07 pm, KlingonKommand <***@nurk.fnord> wrote:
> So here I am playing Privateers for the first time, in Weekend Warrior.
>
> Let's have a look at my homeworld base's storage. It's turn 53.
>
> Large weapons: 444 - about 3% of these were actually *built* by me. The
> rest come from Amphibians. Ie my Native Dustoffs.
>
> I don't think anyone else has a fraction of the number of Amphibians
> I've got because, as we all know, natives are NOT distributed randomly
> either by Master.exe or ScriptZ0r, but clump together with planets with
> imilar ID numbers having similar natives. And hosts / map creators
> invariably number planets sequentially so nearby ones have similar
> numbers (something I thought had been solved in VGAP3 days, where
> similarly critical issues to do with base building depended on ID
> number). Anyhow, with the dozens and dozens of gatling phasors I've
> proven invulnerable to everything the fighter races could throw at me.
>
> Engines: 1,062. Now very few of these actually come from my *own* Ghips,
> I only had a few. They clustered near the UA, but he podded them all up
> to move homeworld when the last one got a bit uncomfortable... then
> dropped out of the game allowing me to assiduously gather them all up.
> Most of those engines are FTL-1's or better. I bet his remaining ally is
> most displeased.
>
> Anyhow, bottom line is that my... Privateers... are one scary bunch of
> fighting ships which I can build for a pittance.
>
> My point is this. I never understood why the amount of Free Stuff that
> natives made got boosted by a factor of at least 10, maybe 100 (this was
> many hosts ago). I have not seen a Rebel lose for a long time, and
> having played Privs now I see just how ridiculously easy it is to win,
> without really trying, when you have native dustoffs on some low tech /
> starting ships.
> --
> KlingonKommand

Try to play Rebel or Privateer on a 200 star map with 8 player like P4
League setup, I garantee Priv have a really hard time, and Rebel have
it a little easier for the first 10-15 turns then they start to
decline.
The natives in those setup are in small numbers.

So play in smaller map with, default master value for natives and all
will be fine.

In such setup Priv have always been killed so far, and many rebel
died, but one manage a victory in tier 3 (entry level).

Lord Lancelot

[Lord Lancelot]

Use Master default level for natives and all will be fine.

Huge amount of natives unbalance the game, and favor Borg, Robot,
native dust off races.

Smaller map aslo help like 200 star map.

One setup I find balanced is this one.

http://www.todoblackberry.com/p4league/rules.php

Lord Lancelot

[KlingonKommand]

>Huge amount of natives unbalance the game, and favor Borg, Robot,
>native dust off races.

I invariably seem to play games with Standard / Average amounts of
natives. It is in these that the Rebs (and in this case, Privateers)
thrive. I feel it is not unreasonable that they should be balanced in
Standard setups. At least the Privateers have some whopping weaknesses
to balance them. Solorians, I dunno, the only 2 times I've come up
against them they were beaten fairly easily, but I suspect that was a
fortunate combination of players and abilities ranged against them.
--
KlingonKommand

[Lord Lancelot]

Solorian also gather natives almost has fast has native dustoff, and
will make them very powerful when lots of natives.
You gather them with 1 man base via probe, and get them via Hyp cargo
ships.

[Lord Owl]

> I don't think anyone else has a fraction of the number of Amphibians
> I've got because, as we all know, natives are NOT distributed randomly
> either by Master.exe or ScriptZ0r, but clump together with planets with
> imilar ID numbers having similar natives.

We do all know this? Well, I didn't! Are you sure natives are clumped
this way? Or was it a one game distribution fluke?

> My point is this. I never understood why the amount of Free Stuff that
> natives made got boosted by a factor of at least 10, maybe 100 (this was
> many hosts ago). I have not seen a Rebel lose for a long time, and
> having played Privs now I see just how ridiculously easy it is to win,
> without really trying, when you have native dustoffs on some low tech /
> starting ships.

Free stuff was boosted by a factor 10? I don't exactly remember... But
I agree, the current value is a bit much. In the P4League we have
reduced natives from average to some in the master settings, just to
reduce the Rebel power (well, that was the main reason). With the
effect that a Rebel with 'some' natives is a bit weak to be competive.
The Priv is less of a problem because of his lack of minesweepers and
the limits on diplomacy, this weakness will get him every time. That's
why I would prefer a minesweeper on one of his really expensive high
end ships like the Bloodfang, as a last resort - though, hm, maybe
even the Bloodfang is too cheap for that.

Anyway, what is the distribution of natives with the average master
setting nowadays?

[Black No1]

On 24 Jun., 10:27, Lord Owl <***@gmx.de> wrote:
[...]
> > My point is this. I never understood why the amount of Free Stuff that
> > natives made got boosted by a factor of at least 10, maybe 100 (this was
> > many hosts ago). I have not seen a Rebel lose for a long time, and
> > having played Privs now I see just how ridiculously easy it is to win,
> > without really trying, when you have native dustoffs on some low tech /
> > starting ships.
>
> Free stuff was boosted by a factor 10? I don't exactly remember...

Don't no either when this boost should have happened..

>But I agree, the current value is a bit much. In the P4League we have
> reduced natives from average to some in the master settings, just to
> reduce the Rebel power.

Although I am aware that we have had this dicussion before, I have to
say that
I agree wholeheartedly on anyone stating that the free large weapons
from
amphibians are too much (native dustoff races are just more likely to
gather
these fast).

Still "workarounds" like the reduced natives in the P4 League games
don't really solve this problem: If there are only say 80k Amphibians
on the whole
map and 1 player gets a population of say 60k Amphibs - that is still
a major boost,
as with some luck these will built some LTLAs / Gatlings etc. in short
time (so the player
doesn't have to invest in the techs, and doesn't have to spend the
cash and minerals for
the weapons)).
I am not allowed to give closer details, but this has definitely has
happened in P4League...

Suggestion 1: Make Amphibians produce much less off the high tech
weapons.
- either reduce the chance for these weapons to be produced in genera
- or make them only produce Large weapons up to the researched lw
tech.

Suggestion 2: Have Amphibians only build small weapons (but then
rather like ghips do with engines)
(All races would benefit from this).

...

[Lord Lancelot]

On Jun 24, 7:12 am, Black No1 <***@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 24 Jun., 10:27, Lord Owl <***@gmx.de> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > > My point is this. I never understood why the amount of Free Stuff that
> > > natives made got boosted by a factor of at least 10, maybe 100 (this was
> > > many hosts ago). I have not seen a Rebel lose for a long time, and
> > > having played Privs now I see just how ridiculously easy it is to win,
> > > without really trying, when you have native dustoffs on some low tech /
> > > starting ships.
>
> > Free stuff was boosted by a factor 10? I don't exactly remember...
>
> Don't no either when this boost should have happened..
>
> >But I agree, the current value is a bit much. In the P4League we have
> > reduced natives from average to some in the master settings, just to
> > reduce the Rebel power.
>
> Although I am aware that we have had this dicussion before, I have to
> say that
> I agree wholeheartedly on anyone stating that the free large weapons
> from
> amphibians are too much (native dustoff races are just more likely to
> gather
> these fast).
>
> Still "workarounds" like the reduced natives in the P4 League games
> don't really solve this problem: If there are only say 80k Amphibians
> on the whole
> map and 1 player gets a population of say 60k Amphibs - that is still
> a major boost,
> as with some luck these will built some LTLAs / Gatlings etc. in short
> time (so the player
> doesn't have to invest in the techs, and doesn't have to spend the
> cash and minerals for
> the weapons)).
> I am not allowed to give closer details, but this has definitely has
> happened in P4League...
>
> Suggestion 1: Make Amphibians produce much less off the high tech
> weapons.
> - either reduce the chance for these weapons to be produced in genera
> - or make them only produce Large weapons up to the researched lw
> tech.
>
> Suggestion 2: Have Amphibians only build small weapons (but then
> rather like ghips do with engines)
> (All races would benefit from this).
>
> ...

Current Master setting
http://planets4.hood-net.org/wiki/index.php/Master

Planet Levels
Setting Min. Max. Default
Minerals In the Ground None Extra Abundant Above Average
Natives None Extra Abundant Average
Contraband None Extra Abundant Some
Cargo and Metals None Extra Abundant Average

And for P4League
Their is a bit too little natives, the master default average would be
better.

[Lord Lancelot]

Suggestion 1: Make Amphibians produce much less off the high tech
weapons.
- either reduce the chance for these weapons to be produced in genera
- or make them only produce Large weapons up to the researched lw
tech.

I would Prefer Amphibian make weapon up to your current Large level
weapon +3
This would still allow them to make stuff your not yet able to build,
but you have to invest a lot of money to have high tech free weapon.

When a weapon is rolled to be above the Large level weapon +3, than
give the 1 more Large level weapon +3 weapon (weapon rolled are not
wasted).

Remember that Ghips produce a lot of engines and no tech are require.

Lord Lancelot

[Shard]

On Jun 25, 4:02 pm, Lord Lancelot <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Suggestion 1: Make Amphibians produce much less off the high tech
> weapons.
> - either reduce the chance for these weapons to be produced in genera
> - or make them only produce Large weapons up to the researched lw
> tech.
>
> I would Prefer Amphibian make weapon up to your current Large level
> weapon +3
> This would still allow them to make stuff your not yet able to build,
> but you have to invest a lot of money to have high tech free weapon.
>
> When a weapon is rolled to be above the Large level weapon +3, than
> give the 1 more Large level weapon +3 weapon (weapon rolled are not
> wasted).
>
> Remember that Ghips produce a lot of engines and no tech are require.
>
> Lord Lancelot

Another suggestion along similar lines to this:

Allow Amphibs and Ghips to produce free stuff, but only up to your
current tech level. On top of that you are able to build higher tech
engines than your current tech level on the base that has the natives
- 1 level higher for each 50'000 natives. So, if you have engine tech
11 and 150'000 ghips you get free engines up to tech 11 and you can
use the expertise of the Ghips to help you to build engines three
levels higher, i.e. up to level 14.

This will give you an incentive to buy all the weapon and engine tech
levels eventually (to get free stuff at that level) but will also
allow you to build weapons and engines of a higher level than you
currently are (although you will have to pay for these).

[Phaidros]

> Another suggestion along similar lines to this:
>
> Allow Amphibs and Ghips to produce free stuff, but only up to your
> current tech level.  On top of that you are able to build higher tech
> engines than your current tech level on the base that has the natives
> - 1 level higher for each 50'000 natives.  So, if you have engine tech
> 11 and 150'000 ghips you get free engines up to tech 11 and you can
> use the expertise of the Ghips to help you to build engines three
> levels higher, i.e. up to level 14.
>
> This will give you an incentive to buy all the weapon and engine tech
> levels eventually (to get free stuff at that level) but will also
> allow you to build weapons and engines of a higher level than you
> currently are (although you will have to pay for these).

That's a really nice one.

Phaidros

[KlingonKommand]

Lord Owl writes

>> I don't think anyone else has a fraction of the number of Amphibians
>> I've got because, as we all know, natives are NOT distributed randomly
>> either by Master.exe or ScriptZ0r, but clump together with planets with
>> imilar ID numbers having similar natives.
>
>We do all know this? Well, I didn't! Are you sure natives are clumped
>this way? Or was it a one game distribution fluke?

I've noticed it in many games and tried bringing it to Tim / Roger
Norris' attention but it never got addressed. I suppose there were more
urgent matters to fix. I'm surprised YOU don't know, you always seemed a
pretty scary player to me!
...
>I agree, the current value is a bit much. In the P4League we have
>reduced natives from average to some in the master settings

It is a shame. Natives are a reward for good play and make cool stuff.
But it is too easy for some races to get them.
...
>The Priv is less of a problem because of his lack of minesweepers and
>the limits on diplomacy, this weakness will get him every time. That's
>why I would prefer a minesweeper on one of his really expensive high
>end ships like the Bloodfang, as a last resort - though, hm, maybe
>even the Bloodfang is too cheap for that.

I would say the lack of minesweepers is awkward, but a good limit on the
Privateers. I have managed to capture a few. You are right about the
diplomacy though. I *am* allied as a Priv, and my devices do more harm
to my allies than my foes! Which is good. Privateers should be outcasts.
--
KlingonKommand

[Shard]

> It is a shame. Natives are a reward for good play and make cool stuff.
> But it is too easy for some races to get them.
> ...
There was a similar discussion a while back about the Rebel native
dust off
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.vgaplanets4/browse_thread/thread/7216886da7eb9ab3

I thought the best solution offered was to reduce the power of the
native dust off device so that it can collect max. 50'000 natives per
turn. That would still give an edge to the native collection of the
Rebels and Privs but it would slow them down a bit and give the other
races a chance to collect natives too.

The only *really* surprising thing in this thread is seeing that Doc
Devious - gleeful author of the 'How to kill the Scum' guide - is
actually playing the Privateers! lol

[Phaidros]

> Engines: 1,062. Now very few of these actually come from my *own* Ghips,
> I only had a few. They clustered near the UA, but he podded them all up
> to move homeworld when the last one got a bit uncomfortable... then
> dropped out of the game allowing me to assiduously gather them all up.
> Most of those engines are FTL-1's or better. I bet his remaining ally is
> most displeased.

One could introduce a new pattern of quickly growing native migration
from player bases with high native populations towards e.g. a dozen
neighbouring planets as soon as a player slot is left unattended for
two consecutive turns. It would be like a evolving mass panic as the
natives learn from turn to turn that their guardian race is indeed
dead and the empire they once thought of as a safe harbour is
decaying.

You still get your prize if you capture a homeworld against an active
player, but the spoils from dropouts would be much smaller.

Phaidros

[Lord Lancelot]

A)
Allow Amphibs and Ghips to produce free stuff, but only up to your
current tech level. On top of that you are able to build higher tech
engines than your current tech level on the base that has the natives
+1 level higher for each 50'000 natives. So, if you have engine tech
11 and 150'000 ghips you get free engines up to tech 11 and you can
use the expertise of the Ghips to help you to build engines three
levels higher, i.e. up to level 14.

Sound good, but you can build engine 3 level higher should be only for
the base that has 150K ghips, not anywhere in your empire.
This can be done for both Ghips and Amphibian.

B)
If too hard to code, drop the part when you can build higher level
stuff, and replace it by for each 50K ghips / Amphibian you get your
current level of tech +1 for the free stuff.

P.S
Where we are at it, let make the Avian build small weapon for each 50K
pack the same rules has above (like amphibian). Avian are the most
boring natives for 99% of the race they do nothing. Or let them build
Shields or PDs.

Lord Lancelot

[Lord Owl]

Good ideas!